| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Tom Wenseleers (@TWenseleers): Great visualisation of @theosanderson showing the change in anti-S antibodies from vaccination and/or infection in England. Even so, new variants like XBB.1.5 still manage to spread because these antibodies are not perfectly matched... twitter.com/theosanderson/… → https://twitter.com/TWenseleers/status/1614757341911474176 | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bahrain: +63 cases, +1869 tests since a day ago | 00:10 |
| apocalypsenow | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35320581/ | 00:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Tom Wenseleers (@TWenseleers): Curve of % testing positive for N-antibodies (from exposure by the virus) by age also in graph below. Among 70+ still 30% that were never exposed (maybe underestimated, as Abs wane over time & some never seroconvert). twitter.com/theosanderson/… → https://twitter.com/TWenseleers/status/1614771253226704897 | 00:50 |
| Tuvix | apocalypsenow: That's fairly old news going by both the date and the content? Did you have some context you expected to go with that? As far as I'm aware, the use of asperating injection needle is not typical for most vaccine administration overall. | 01:01 |
| Tuvix | And, uh, yea, you don't put an intra-muscular vaccine into the bloodstream either. That's pretty obvious I'd have thought. | 01:02 |
| apocalypsenow | Yah but it doesnt seem like its part of the protocol strangely | 01:02 |
| apocalypsenow | and the spike protein does a lot of damage when it ends up in other parts of the body, unexpectedly | 01:03 |
| apocalypsenow | i wonder if the current protocols are not updated to reflect that, or why not in the first place | 01:03 |
| Tuvix | You're really missing the point. There are no blood veins nearby that are at risk. | 01:05 |
| Tuvix | The benefits from an asperating needle only apply in that case. | 01:05 |
| Tuvix | What is it you believe is not being "updated" and what is it that you think is reflected? Vaccines (those delivered via intra-muscular injection) are not aspirated. That would include annual influenza vaccinations as well. | 01:06 |
| Tuvix | As I noted above, this is quite old news. Here's a Canadian health provider noting this over a year ago: https://www.saskhealthauthority.ca/news-events/news/why-we-dont-aspirate-when-we-vaccinate | 01:07 |
| Tuvix | "Vaccines are delivered to large muscles in the upper arm or thigh, where there is no risk of nearby veins or large blood vessels. […] Simply put, there is no benefit to aspirating vaccinations." | 01:07 |
| Tuvix | "At times, health professionals will insert a needle in an arm and pull back the needle’s plunger to see if any blood fills the syringe. This is called aspirating, which is useful for providing some medications; and is a way to make sure medication isn’t accidentally injected into a vein or blood vessel, which can be dangerous." | 01:08 |
| Tuvix | Except, recall that the vaccines we're discussing are not going anywhere near a blood vessel. | 01:08 |
| apocalypsenow | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8941363/ | 01:08 |
| apocalypsenow | "Syringe aspiration when vaccinating intramuscularly was not recommended before the pandemic due to the lack of conclusive evidence that it provides any benefit. However, in vivo evidence suggests that intravenous injection of mRNA vaccine can potentially lead to myocarditis, while introducing adenoviral vector to bloodstream can possibly result in | 01:08 |
| apocalypsenow | thrombocytopenia and coagulopathy. These rare reactions were recorded in humans following the administration of the COVID-19 vaccines. Although the syringe aspiration may increase the level of pain at the injection site, it represents a simple technique to decrease the risk of vaccine introduction into the vascular system and potentially decrease | 01:08 |
| apocalypsenow | the risk of severe reactions to mRNA and adenoviral vaccines. We are of the opinion that this cannot be disregarded if one considers that the COVID-19 vaccines will continue to be administrated globally in the form of initial and booster doses. Therefore, the aspiration when giving mRNA and adenoviral vaccines appears to be fully in line with the | 01:08 |
| apocalypsenow | precautionary principle." | 01:08 |
| Tuvix | No shit. That's why you don't put it in the bloodstream. | 01:09 |
| apocalypsenow | so thats why you do it out of precaution | 01:09 |
| apocalypsenow | like you sya | 01:09 |
| apocalypsenow | no shit | 01:09 |
| Tuvix | You do realize what the first paragraph says, yes? When it says "intravenous injection of mRNA vaccine" -- we don't put it in the blood stream. | 01:09 |
| apocalypsenow | rather crudely lol | 01:09 |
| Tuvix | So, there's a non-issue with the injection site being anywhere near a blood vessel, but you want to take a percaution that's both unnecessary and causes patients more pain? For what reason? | 01:10 |
| apocalypsenow | well given the magnitude of vaccine injury and side effects | 01:10 |
| apocalypsenow | nowhere near the vaccine site | 01:10 |
| apocalypsenow | its safe to error on the side of caution | 01:10 |
| Tuvix | You could wear a condom when you grocery shop too. But we don't do that. | 01:11 |
| apocalypsenow | the only down side is uncomfortable, it might also save your life | 01:11 |
| Tuvix | If you have a healthcare provider that "accidentally" stabs you in a blood vessel during an intra-muscular vaccine, you have much bigger problems. | 01:13 |
| apocalypsenow | to error is human | 01:17 |
| Tuvix | It's still effectively unnecessary, and this isn't anything new to do with COVID. The recommendation has to do with the injection site more than anything else. | 01:28 |
| Tuvix | For instance, here's some documentation that pairs well with what I learned when I was giving weekly injections to someone in the rear; in that case it was actually very low-risk to be close to veins or nerves, and I did in fact nick one once. But you'd never do that with a vaccine in the butt like that. | 01:29 |
| Tuvix | Near to see that what I learned last year doing those injections is exactly what the recommendations have been going back some years now (nearly 8 years as of this spring.) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jocn.12824 | 01:30 |
| Tuvix | "Owing to its proximity to the gluteal artery, aspiration when using the dorsogluteal site is recommended. Nurses must be supported in all settings, by clear guidance which rejects traditional practice and facilitates evidence-based practice." <- and that's the crux; in medical science, we expect those who practice to be using *evidence* based science. Not scare-tactics. | 01:31 |
| Tuvix | Of course, you don't get your COVID-19 shots in the dorsogluteal site. | 01:32 |
| apocalypsenow | Well sometimes its better to be overtly cautious with the known signals, not a scare tactic at all. Its a pretty bad pandemic | 01:37 |
| apocalypsenow | Like we did with masks and distancing out the gate, preemptive action, before we knew a lot about covid | 01:38 |
| LjL | <Tuvix> You could wear a condom when you grocery shop too. But we don't do that. ← are you saying the myocarditis is so rare that we don't need to take a precaution to avoid it? | 01:39 |
| LjL | because it so, i acutely disagree | 01:39 |
| LjL | and i'd pull back from my vaccine needle | 01:39 |
| LjL | <Tuvix> If you have a healthcare provider that "accidentally" stabs you in a blood vessel during an intra-muscular vaccine, you have much bigger problems. | 01:39 |
| LjL | i think you said that before | 01:39 |
| LjL | so what? there are MANY of these injections being done | 01:39 |
| Tuvix | Plenty of people were overly catious to the point of not getting vacinated at all, and that cost quite a large number of lives. I just don't buy the evidence, especially considering the studies referenced (although not all are open access, and I haven't dug through *every* reference -- there could be more going on here) but medical staff weren't doing asperation right previously. | 01:39 |
| LjL | like, more than ever in the history of medicine | 01:39 |
| LjL | which has meant also co-opting people who were not always expect vaccinators | 01:40 |
| LjL | which sometimes inevitably made mistakes | 01:40 |
| LjL | and both types of vaccines showed that presence in the bloodstream can cause serious issues | 01:40 |
| LjL | so you're doing a circular reasoning. why check for mistaken injection into the bloodstream? we're not injecting into the bloodstream. | 01:40 |
| LjL | well, we aren't unless we are, that's why check. | 01:40 |
| Tuvix | By that logic then largely every medical facility has been "botching" this for decades then, going by the reports that even among those who used to 5-10+ years back, most weren't doing it properly. Ultimately I have to put faith in the evidence-based systems because it really is the best we have even if not perfect. | 01:42 |
| LjL | I like the site called "Science-based medicine" | 01:43 |
| LjL | it makes a point of not being called "Evidence-based medicine" | 01:43 |
| Tuvix | "The majority of health professionals do not aspirate for the recommended 5–10 seconds. Administering an injection faster without aspiration is less painful than injecting slowly and aspirating. The main influences on the decision of whether or not to aspirate are based on what health professionals are taught and fear of injecting into a blood vessel." -- now I haven't gone and looked into the | 01:43 |
| Tuvix | referenced academic databases, largely because many are behind a pay-wall. | 01:43 |
| LjL | and the precautionary principle *is* a principle that is used in medical science, and that i have invoked MANY times during this pandemic | 01:43 |
| LjL | i would be pretty hypocritical if I say it arbitrarily doesn't happen in this circumstance | 01:43 |
| Tuvix | I guess what I'd really like to see is more literature about the balance between doing the job right and catering to patients needs. Judging by at least the summary-article of those 14 articles going back to 2015, perhaps there's been a standing history of "we don't do it because it hurts more." But I also don't buy that's thet sole reason we don't do it. | 01:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: To aspirate or not to aspirate? Considerations for the COVID-19 vaccines: Type Journal Article Author Piotr Rzymski Author Andrzej Fal Volume 74 Issue 6 Pages 1223-1227 Publication Pharmacological reports: PR ISSN 2299-5684 Date 2022-12 Extra PMID: 35320581PMCID: PMC8941363 Journal [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/ZZNWQ855 | 01:47 |
| apocalypsenow | also you need to consider it on the context of the mrna shots | 01:48 |
| LjL | Libera/##covid-19/2023-01-06.log:[20:25:08] <de-facto> btw iirc there were studies (denmark vs norway or such, not quite sure about the countries anymore) that showed that myocarditis is less probably when they aspirated | 01:50 |
| LjL | Libera/##covid-19/2023-01-06.log-[20:28:08] <de-facto> %title https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1114 | 01:50 |
| LjL | Libera/##covid-19/2023-01-06.log-[20:28:11] <Brainstorm> de-facto: From www.bmj.com: Arterial events, venous thromboembolism, thrombocytopenia, and bleeding after vaccination with Oxford-AstraZeneca ChAdOx1-S in Denmark and Norway: population based cohort study | The BMJ | 01:50 |
| apocalypsenow | Although COVID-19 vaccines are intended for intramuscular injection, the deltoid muscle, a preferred site, has enough vascularity to accidentally and rarely lead to the vaccine’s introduction into the bloodstream and its translocation to distant tissues. | 01:50 |
| LjL | though tbf i don't think de-facto linked to the study he had in mind because it doesn't say that | 01:52 |
| de-facto | if we do know that the spike protein causes problems when released into the bloodstream imho everything to prevent that should be done, including simple things that ensure to not hit a vessel that supplies the deltoid muscle with energy such as pulling back the piston of the syringe looking for if blood can be drawn from the needles end, its called aspiration | 02:06 |
| de-facto | for that of course the needle itself needs to have a diameter suitable for allowing blood to flow back in case the needle ends inside a vessel | 02:06 |
| de-facto | it should be in the interest of MDs to lower any risk for side effects as much as possible , if an MD disagrees with such an approach i honestly question the intent behind his choice of job | 02:09 |
| de-facto | not only is it beneficial to the individual patient in question (to maximize benefit per risk ratio), its also about the reputation for a specific medical procedure such as vaccinations preventing a bad reputation by ensuring the risk is as low as possible hence to maximize the amount of people that choose to benefit from it | 02:14 |
| LjL | de-facto, well Tuvix seems to be saying there are no blood vessels that can be hit in the deltoid muscle | 02:14 |
| de-facto | how can a muscle be in void of blood vessels? | 02:14 |
| de-facto | its one of the most energy consuming parts in the body, to me it appears a logical consequence that it requires energy supply for that to work | 02:15 |
| Tuvix | That's not what I was saying; merely that the literature to date seems to indicate that 1) it's considered a safe injection site, and 2) no one really followed the "proper" procedures anyway, going by a meta-study that looked at 14 studies back through 2015. | 02:15 |
| Tuvix | And I really don't have time to do this again, since I have stuff to do, but thanks for trying to drag me back into it. | 02:15 |
| LjL | the literature "to date" meaning what we had before a huge pandemic caused us to give people *billions* of injections? | 02:15 |
| LjL | and then afterwards you see a paper from *during* that pandemic and you go "old news" | 02:16 |
| LjL | seems circular again to me | 02:16 |
| Tuvix | And, what, we weren't doing any with the flu before that? | 02:16 |
| de-facto | it depends on the type of injection, in this case the optimal outcome is that the injected substance stays as local as possible inside that muscle to make the muscle cells bloom with the spike protein | 02:16 |
| Tuvix | Like the 2015 paper I linked? If this was such a big deal, then we've collectively fucked up, royally, for decades, and promoted awful, dangerious science that could have killed any one of us. | 02:16 |
| Tuvix | I think you don't mean to blow it that out of scale, but that's what this seems to be about. | 02:17 |
| Tuvix | Now, I also readily admited maybe the issue is lack of actually caring to study this, and then train medical professionals. | 02:18 |
| Tuvix | This even hints at that: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7012163/ | 02:18 |
| de-facto | it may be different for injections of chemical substances that are supposed to slowly end up in the blood stream anyhow by IM injection | 02:18 |
| de-facto | of course it may be beneficial that virions or mRNA LNPs are much much bigger than e.g. biochemical molecules, hence will have diffusion constant that differs a lot, yet since it contains the instruction to build the spike protein it means its impact will get amplified by the cells blooming with the spikes later on, hence leakage may be less probably but also invloves bigger potential impact (due to that amplification effect compared to just | 02:20 |
| de-facto | substances) | 02:20 |
| LjL | Tuvix, the flu shot is quite different from the covid shot, isn't it? | 02:22 |
| de-facto | i would go for the vaccination in the deltoid muscle again anytime (its probably one of the best locationf for such an IM injection) yet i also would require them to do it properly, e.g. lower the risk for injection into a vessel by aspiration before injection | 02:23 |
| ublix | an example of what they're trying to miss: https://musculoskeletalkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/A324233_1_En_26_Fig4_HTML.gif | 02:23 |
| LjL | from your latest linked paper Tuvix: Although the site located at a one to three finger breadth below the acromion is generally recommended for an IM injection at the deltoid site,4,5 we previously reported that the site at a three finger breadth (approximately 5 cm) below the acromion was not acceptable for IM injections because it is close to the axillary nerve and posterior circumflex humeral artery (PCHA).6,7 | 02:24 |
| LjL | so there are subtleties | 02:24 |
| LjL | subtleties that in a vast army of vaccinators can sometimes be ignored, i'm sure | 02:24 |
| Tuvix | LjL: Right, that seems in-line with the prior paper I might have (?) linked, (I didn't bookmark it, and in my haste to do the things I'm no longer doing tongiht, sigh, I closed the tab that had it,) it suggested that the reason to asparate was in part due to lack of training. | 02:26 |
| LjL | and in science, yes, we can sometimes fuck up royally and end up killing people, so it's important to be open to science changing, even when it seems to be "the state of the art". i think suggesting it's being blown out of scale when we're simply pointing out things that have perplexed people in this channel since the time vaccines against COVID started being used is... stifling science. or not, because nobody cares about us. but otherwise, it would be. | 02:27 |
| de-facto | its extremely rare that it will really end up in a vessel, yet if the risk can be halved or such by something as simple as taking 10 seconds to aspirate i think it should be mandatory in general | 02:27 |
| Tuvix | Now, is the issue we're not training people to do the job right so some were doing additional protection? Or that the protetion is useful (despite the CDC saying it's both not and is not necessary?) These seem prety fundamental issues to not have figured out. | 02:27 |
| LjL | Tuvix, yeah there are a bunch of fundamental issues about COVID we haven't figured out, i'm afraid | 02:27 |
| LjL | and i suspect this is one of them | 02:27 |
| LjL | but again | 02:27 |
| LjL | even if in normal circumstances, the only risk with not aspirating is about people not being trained correctly - in normal circumstances, the reaction should be to train the professionals correctly | 02:28 |
| de-facto | here in Germany its MDs doing those injections, i assume they do learn how to aspirate during their practical training while studying medicine | 02:28 |
| LjL | but when you're doing a world-first mass vaccination of pretty much the entire world, well, in the UK, for example, "vaccinators" were often volunteers receiving training, yes, but minimal training | 02:28 |
| LjL | so aspirating to make up for lack of training seems *extremely* appropriate to me if injection into the bloodstream would cause adverse effects | 02:29 |
| LjL | and we have some evidence that it might | 02:29 |
| Tuvix | I mean, it sounds like this is an argumet to fix our underfunded healthcare system, but we haven't exactly done well on that regad. | 02:29 |
| de-facto | there were some really young ones helping out in the vaccination centers, hence probably freshly trained in how to aspirate (among all the other things they just learned) | 02:29 |
| LjL | few healthcare systems will be funded to the extent they are ready to deal with a pandemic without "some people making mistakes" | 02:29 |
| LjL | unless we really do enter an "age of pandemics" and... we either succumb, or train everyone properly | 02:30 |
| LjL | but right now, it seems like an argument *to aspirate* to me | 02:30 |
| LjL | you're making it into an argument about everything from bad training to lack of funding | 02:30 |
| LjL | but IF aspirating would solve the bulk of cases of botched injection | 02:30 |
| Tuvix | To change inertia you need to deal with that training issue. | 02:30 |
| LjL | it would seem to me that's a very easy first measure to take, and hence, that's what it's about *now* | 02:31 |
| Tuvix | Well, will it? I study linked earlier suggests not. | 02:31 |
| Tuvix | It found that even *when* professionals do asperate, they didn't do it sufficiently to see the expected gains. | 02:31 |
| Tuvix | So, yea, I'm making it about training. | 02:31 |
| Tuvix | If you don't train them to do the mitigation properly, what exaclty have you gained? | 02:32 |
| LjL | Tuvix, since you don't seem to like older studies... this one is recent: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.061025 | 02:32 |
| Tuvix | I'm *absolutely* making this about training; that's what it is no matter what the recommended procedures are. | 02:32 |
| LjL | anyway it's not like de-facto has complaining about this for two years because there *weren't* suggestions that injection into the bloodstream was responsible for the adverse reactions | 02:32 |
| LjL | trust me, when de-facto has a hunch about something he makes that known. repeatedly. so i remember. | 02:32 |
| de-facto | they should get properly trained and also it should be made mandatory to 1) use needles with sufficient diameter that blood can reach the end of the needle when pulling back the piston for a certain (required) amount of time with a certain (standardized, hence e.g. build metric into the piston handle) force and 2) all personal allowed to do such injections must be trained in how to perform this procedure how to aspirate correctly | 02:34 |
| LjL | Tuvix, well, that's an important matter, if aspiration isn't *adequate* to prevent this, then we should see in my opinion how often it does succeed. if the rate is abysmally low, then yes, we should do something else. | 02:34 |
| LjL | de-facto, to be fair, if we haven't done that until COVID, then engineering and then producing the types of syringes and needles required would probably have slowed down vaccine adoption | 02:35 |
| de-facto | you can never get 100% certainty with any medical procedure, yet if there is a simple method to lower risk it should be employed imho | 02:35 |
| Tuvix | I mean, that's really what I'm calling for, but I hesitate to dictate to the health professionsals what they should be doing unless I'm damn sure about my position. And based on studies to date, results are mixed to begin with, even in cases where the injection isn't "just" a 30-year-tried vaccine but something more deadly. Maybe "more careful" -- and maybe that's what needs to be stressed to the | 02:35 |
| Tuvix | providers here, I don't know. | 02:36 |
| Tuvix | Change just to do it quickly has other consequences, and immagine trying to next-month change how every injection is given (and, what retrain them to do it properly?) I don't exactly have faith in the US CDC to move quickly, but WHO has usually at least called for more research (even when they know funding won't make it happen.) | 02:37 |
| de-facto | LjL, well yeah but why not observe and improve on the results? i think if there is an observation hinting towards a benefit (in terms of lowering the risk) from standardizing a certain procedure to make it more reproducible it should be introduced globally | 02:37 |
| LjL | apocalypsenow, i hope you're satisfied that this discussion is occurring with mixed opinions in an open manner. maybe next time when you link a paper, though, provide some context behind it, your own opinion, and some open ended questions (or other things, those are examples), because usually just "dropping" links in these channels is seen as annoying, for reasons that are understandable when you're been here long enough. | 02:37 |
| Tuvix | I wonder a bit why not here; is it they don't think it's going to help in the short-term? Or they just have other priorities? Or they know that the inertia here and the ROI to fund "quick" reserach just isn't there? | 02:38 |
| Tuvix | I mean, either WHO is "out to get" everyone, or this issue is a lot more complex than "we should all be doing <x>" | 02:38 |
| apocalypsenow | im encouraged by the outcome, good conversation | 02:38 |
| Tuvix | And I'm pretty sure it's not the former! | 02:38 |
| apocalypsenow | i didnt need to add context, it built its own life | 02:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Circulating Spike Protein Detected in Post–COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine Myocarditis: Type Journal Article Author Lael M. Yonker Author Zoe Swank Author Yannic C. Bartsch Author Madeleine D. Burns Author Abigail Kane Author Brittany P. Boribong Author Jameson P. Davis Author Maggie [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/NZNFJV46 | 02:39 |
| LjL | Tuvix, if you want my personal opinion, it is biased by what i remember de-facto showing me from the German guidelines. it basically said that aspiration was not to be done because 1) the risk was small 2) aspiration may make the injection slightly more painful. from that i started scratching my head and wondering, are they really saying that a precautionary measure that presumably works against serious issues (okay, it may not, best investigate) shouldn't be done | 02:42 |
| LjL | just due to a small additional amount of pain? but then i thought, imagine if everyone's first shot had been a little more painful. and the second shot too. and so on. on such large numbers, would a percentage of people have decided to *discontinue* their vaccination course because of injection pain? how much of a percentage? enough to offset the deaths from myocarditis? | 02:42 |
| LjL | then it becomes almost a philosophical issue, but since all those "?"s are very speculative, i'd have thought either hire some real good statisticians and publish a paper about that... | 02:43 |
| LjL | or otherwise, do the thing you consider safer, at the cost of marginally more pain on injection. | 02:43 |
| Tuvix | Yea, which is why comparison of even those that did the procedure not doing it "properly" (or properly "enough"? Not sure where the emphasis goes here) were possible skewing results. Ultimately more study sounds needed, but same with "everything else pandemic-related" too, and not enough budget/time/professionals for all of it. | 02:44 |
| Tuvix | Our system is far from perfect, but I really have to pick and choose what I get worked up about becuase otherwise I'd never leave the house, and that's not viable. | 02:45 |
| LjL | <apocalypsenow> i didnt need to add context, it built its own life ← sorry, that's neither correct nor a good excuse. honestly it "built its own life" because i'm sometimes stubborn to a fault, and if i hadn't quite pointedly decided to insist on this, your link would just have put you in a bad light and no discussion would have been had. | 02:45 |
| LjL | so next time don't put people in difficult positions or make them spend time doing your own job. if you have an important paper, by all means link it, but discuss it preemptively as well. | 02:46 |
| Tuvix | This just isn't my hill to die on from all the info I've seen. Maybe I'd care more if I was in a high-risk group like obese or highly thin or one of the other categories at high-risk of injection trouble. But, if I was, I'd hope that would have concerned me pre-COVID too. | 02:46 |
| apocalypsenow | i have no clue what you are trying to say, but the result was my intent | 02:46 |
| apocalypsenow | its spurred conversation about aspiration | 02:46 |
| apocalypsenow | and still the outstanding question remains | 02:46 |
| LjL | Tuvix, i'm arguably highly thin. why would it have concerned me pre-COVID, considering my last vaccine before COVID was when i was 5 or so? | 02:47 |
| apocalypsenow | if MDs out to implement it, why isnt it instructed by the pharma company | 02:47 |
| apocalypsenow | assuming they write the procedure | 02:47 |
| LjL | apocalypsenow, i'm saying that it only spurred a conversation of this kind because i made it my job to fix what you had botched | 02:47 |
| apocalypsenow | there was nothing broken, i had it under control | 02:47 |
| apocalypsenow | you had a chance to fix someones mistakes, thats a win | 02:48 |
| apocalypsenow | if that is the way you see it | 02:48 |
| Tuvix | No, you didn't, you left a link in here and said nothing for 10+ minutes. | 02:48 |
| Tuvix | Thta's what you're being called out on, and defending yourself just maeks you look like you wanted to stir things up and are proud of causing a mess. That's not a great attitude to have. | 02:48 |
| LjL | apocalypsenow, the mistake was partly yours, that's what i'm saying. indeed leaving a link like that and saying nothing is *intrinsically a mistake* on this channel. | 02:49 |
| LjL | i've tried to point out why it shouldn't be done | 02:49 |
| LjL | but now i am also telling you that it shouldn't be done | 02:49 |
| LjL | that i personally agree with the contents of that links is another matter. i'm here both as a channel user with opinions on medical issues around COVID, and as a moderator of this channel. | 02:50 |
| LjL | sometimes my split personalities have to show up | 02:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: To aspirate or not to aspirate? Considerations for the COVID-19 vaccines: Type Journal Article Author Piotr Rzymski Author Andrzej Fal URL https://doi.org/10.1007/s43440-022-00361-4 Volume 74 Issue 6 Pages 1223-1227 Publication Pharmacological Reports ISSN 2299-5684 Date 2022-12-01 [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/CGVJ5MVR | 02:59 |
| * de-facto hopes the next big improvement will be intranasal vaccinations | 03:03 | |
| LjL | i hope whatever it is, it induces sterile immunity | 03:03 |
| LjL | i'm not too hung up on it having to be intranasal :P | 03:03 |
| de-facto | i wonder how far they progressed with developing those towards a commercial product yet | 03:03 |
| LjL | it could be up my butt for all i care | 03:03 |
| LjL | okay, overshare | 03:03 |
| LjL | since these a lot of people (like me) are distracted by certain artificial intelligence models: let's tie them back in https://erictopol.substack.com/p/when-md-is-a-machine-doctor | 03:04 |
| LjL | these days* | 03:04 |
| de-facto | for respiratory pathogens it would have to be intranasal in order to suppress the pathogen reproduction inside the host as soon as possible (increasing chances to prevent becoming infectious altogether) | 03:05 |
| LjL | yes, probably | 03:06 |
| LjL | i am also hoping very much that we get new treatments | 03:06 |
| LjL | because | 03:06 |
| LjL | 1) current monoclonal antibodies don't work anymore, and anyway always required injection | 03:06 |
| LjL | 2) there is an untold secret about Paxlovid | 03:06 |
| de-facto | as soon as the virions began to replicate towards a critical mass (locally overwhelming the immune response in quantities on the mucous membranes) the infection most likely will reach a state where it sheds enough infectious particles that it may jump over to the next host | 03:07 |
| LjL | why is Paxlovid being used so little in most of the world (though amounts vary)? the thing is the same as with HIV cocktails: they're *cocktails* because just one medication, even a very effective one, will be overcome by the virus's ability to mutate | 03:07 |
| LjL | so using *only* Paxlovid on a large scale will quickly make the virus mutate to resist it | 03:07 |
| LjL | Molnupiravir is not much liked (for good reasons, methinks) but a study looked at using it together with Paxlovid and found that promising | 03:08 |
| LjL | i'd rather something about as powerful as Paxlovid (but with very different mechanism of action) were found, and dual therapy could be done, with much less risk of developing resistence | 03:08 |
| LjL | right now, Paxlovid is used in 0.5% of UK patients | 03:08 |
| LjL | and remember that Paxlovid has about 90% efficacy against the grave | 03:09 |
| de-facto | yes small molecule drugs (such as Paxlovid) are highly specific (hence highly effective) but also highly dependent on their epitope (pocket of molecular puzzle fitting properly) that they are quite vulnerable to small evasive mutations | 03:09 |
| LjL | %title https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04576-6 | 03:09 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.nature.com: COVID drug Paxlovid was hailed as a game-changer. What happened? | 03:09 |
| LjL | this article focuses mostly on other reasons for low use of Paxlovid | 03:10 |
| LjL | although it's still used 10x as much in the US as in the UK, that's a striking difference | 03:10 |
| LjL | but i think one *good* reason to reserve it to extreme cases is development of resistence | 03:10 |
| LjL | and i saw a study that indeed said this was observed in vitro, and some resistant variants are already circulating | 03:11 |
| LjL | let's see if i find it | 03:11 |
| LjL | %print https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1613250802159878144 | 03:12 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, It says: Eric Topol on Twitter: "Some #SARSCoV2 mutations that confer resistance to Paxlovid have been deposited @NCBI & @GISAID https://t.co/bzgje9aYqJ @ScienceTM "Our findings argue for highly selective use...because extensive, unselective use is expected to rapidly lead to emergence of drug resistance." https://t.co/hg2E0EKf25" / Twitter | 03:12 |
| de-facto | Molnupilavir in itself aims at a more generic mechanism (by mimicry of an nucleoside of RNA itself and trying to jam the replication mechanism) that it is less vulnerable to such point mutations, yet in general will have impact not only on the RNA of a specific pathogen and there is the problem with the gray zone (between RNA with high fidelity and that with fatal error cascades) that may increase mutation rates (of virions that are still somewhat | 03:13 |
| de-facto | fit for replication) | 03:13 |
| LjL | " Furthermore, we found that most of these resistance mutations already existed in SARS-CoV-2 sequences that have been deposited in the NCBI and GISAID databases, indicating that these mutations were present in circulating SARS-CoV-2 strains." | 03:13 |
| LjL | de-facto, Molnupiravir scares me both for its potential to create mutants, and for oncogenic potential maybe. And it's not even very effective. | 03:14 |
| de-facto | Paxlovid should have been restricted for usage of severe cases that can be isolated during their treatment, hence it should be off limits for treating patients at home (because their evasive mutants may jump to other hosts then) | 03:14 |
| de-facto | LjL, yes me too, yet the risk for evasive mutants really are lower with it | 03:14 |
| LjL | de-facto, you don't know they're severe until it's too late for Paxlovid, since it has to be administered within 3-5 days of symptoms (or at least, that were the tested conditions) | 03:14 |
| de-facto | evasive mutants to the mechanism employed for Molnupiravir that is | 03:15 |
| LjL | yes, okay, but is it worth the risk | 03:15 |
| de-facto | LjL, good point | 03:15 |
| LjL | i'd say if in the UK they're using it on only 0.5% of patients, they're already being very selective. the US, not so much | 03:15 |
| de-facto | antivirals have to be given early, but imho only in strict isolation | 03:15 |
| LjL | in Italy everyone keeps saying Paxlovid is used much less than it could be, but i don't know the actual numbers | 03:15 |
| de-facto | i am not even sure about usage in Germany but i know its broadly available in pharmacies (on recipe from an MD ofc) | 03:16 |
| LjL | de-facto, and yet, Paxlovid and Molnupiravir were developed specifically in part *because* they are "just pills" that can be used at home, unlike monoclonals (well, back then monoclonals still worked...) | 03:16 |
| de-facto | so i assume for home usage aswell (where strict isolation most likely is not enforced) | 03:17 |
| LjL | indeed, consider that monoclonals are usually administered in a hospital setting, and yet, current variants evade them anyway | 03:17 |
| LjL | it was definitely developed for home usage | 03:17 |
| LjL | you may not agree but that was its whole pitch | 03:17 |
| de-facto | monoclonals always target one specific epitope, they are even more specific than Paxlovid (hence more effective but also easier to evade) | 03:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: SARS-CoV-2 3CL pro mutations selected in a VSV-based system confer resistance to nirmatrelvir, ensitrelvir, and GC376: Type Journal Article Author Emmanuel Heilmann Author Francesco Costacurta Author Seyed Arad Moghadasi Author Chengjin Ye Author Matteo Pavan Author Davide Bassani [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/646MNMMR | 03:18 |
| de-facto | its like a static immune response (unable to follow antigenic drift by feedback) | 03:18 |
| de-facto | so yeah they try to target conserved epitopes (yet by introducing selection pressure test the virus on how conserved that really is) | 03:18 |
| LjL | to be fair, Paxlovid already *is* two antivirals together. but that doesn't seem to be enough | 03:20 |
| de-facto | as long as the virus can not replicate without having that epitope intact it works, but maybe with enough tries the virus still will find a way to replicate without that epitope intact hence can give up conserving it for a fit enough strain to jump over to the next host | 03:20 |
| LjL | (the second antiviral isn't really specific) | 03:20 |
| de-facto | well LjL but only one of them targeting SARS-CoV-2, the other is only for enlarging the biological half life of the former | 03:20 |
| de-facto | yeah | 03:21 |
| LjL | so yeah, i wish Paxlovid could be used *by many people* and *at home*, as designed. but that requires using it in a cocktail with a second, also very effective, antiviral... which for now, we don't have. | 03:21 |
| LjL | (i don't count Molnupiravir because aside from the risks... 30% efficacy) | 03:22 |
| LjL | but, meh, i'll add the study about combination therapy anyway | 03:22 |
| de-facto | the result being we will be left without an effective antiviral because of the majority of incidence will have an Paxlovid easion event in its past somewhere | 03:22 |
| de-facto | in its ancestors | 03:23 |
| LjL | they do cleverly start their conclusion with "Combination therapy has been associated with the acquisition of fewer genomic mutations" | 03:24 |
| LjL | de-facto, that's not true if a good cocktail is developed | 03:25 |
| LjL | come on de-facto, do we want to keep having 100 deaths a day? antivirals *can* be used safely, if safe cocktails are developed | 03:25 |
| LjL | and it's completely impractical to only limit it to "strict isolation" usage because you basically can't pick your target. unless it's "rich people". | 03:25 |
| LjL | (100 deaths a day *in this country*, i meant to say. of course it's many more in general) | 03:26 |
| de-facto | yes the cocktails should be developed ofc | 03:26 |
| de-facto | yet are the? | 03:27 |
| de-facto | yet are they developed? | 03:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Combination therapy with nirmatrelvir and molnupiravir improves the survival of SARS-CoV-2 infected mice: Type Journal Article Author Ju Hwan Jeong Author Santosh Chokkakula Author Seong Cheol Min Author Beom Kyu Kim Author Won-Suk Choi Author Sol Oh Author Yu Soo Yun Author Da Hyeon [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/7ZW3DWPR | 03:27 |
| LjL | de-facto, until they develop a second, good, antiviral, they can't develop cocktails ;) | 03:30 |
| LjL | so this is just my hope | 03:30 |
| de-facto | probabilities for evasion should be approximately multiplicative if the mechanisms and mutations can be assumed to be somewhat independent from one another | 03:32 |
| LjL | the paper also considers remdesivir but has poor results with a combination of paxlovid and it | 03:32 |
| de-facto | it also may depend on the unwanted side effects involved, i assume the body can only tolerate a certain amount of them simultaneously | 03:34 |
| de-facto | hence for cocktails only highly specific drugs make sense, e.g. those that target very specifically the pathogen while having minimal impact on other body functions and thereby allowing to employ another antiviral simultaneously (that also should be highly specific) | 03:36 |
| LjL | Paxlovid is certainly like that | 03:39 |
| LjL | so let's find another! | 03:39 |
| * LjL starts putting molecules together | 03:39 | |
| Brainstorm | Updates for New Zealand: +19179 cases since 16 hours ago | 04:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: [Singapore] 3 mRNA vaccine shots enough to keep healthy people well-protected, even for new Covid-19 variants → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/10d32kl/singapore_3_mrna_vaccine_shots_enough_to_keep/ | 06:41 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Saint Petersburg, Russia: +554 cases, +9 deaths since a day ago — Udmurt, Russia: +140 cases since a day ago — Tyumen, Russia: +79 cases since a day ago — Kaliningrad, Russia: +71 cases, +1 deaths since a day ago | 07:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 16, 2023: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/10d8to9/daily_discussion_thread_january_16_2023/ | 09:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: When antivax “died suddenly” conspiracy mongering vultures target a friend and colleague: After SBM suffered the unexpected loss of our co-founder Dr. Harriet Hall last week, we were angered and distressed to see [... want %more?] → https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/when-antivax-died-suddenly-conspiracy-mongering-vultures-target-a-friend-and-colleague/ | 10:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Characteristics of the Moveable Middle: Opportunities Among Adults Open to COVID-19 Vaccination → https://old.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/10dabzz/characteristics_of_the_moveable_middle/ | 10:43 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Israel: +863 cases, +4 deaths since 23 hours ago | 12:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Telemental health for clinical assessment and treatment: AbstractTelemental health—the use of videoconferencing or audio only (telephone) in mental health care—has accelerated tremendously since the start of the covid-19 pandemic. Meta-analyses have examined the reliability (ie, concordance) of [... want %more?] → http://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj-2022-072398.short | 12:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Fluad Tetra, influenza vaccine (surface antigen, inactivated, adjuvanted), Influenza, Human, Date of authorisation: 20/05/2020, Revision: 5, Status: Authorised → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/fluad-tetra | 12:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Global COVID Cases For 16JAN22 → https://old.reddit.com/r/nCoV/comments/10dcnct/global_covid_cases_for_16jan22/ | 12:57 |
| apocalypsenow | so what was the conclusion on aspiration discussion, yes or no? | 13:08 |
| apocalypsenow | MD responsibility to know better, or should it be pharma company that recommends the procedure? | 13:09 |
| ublx | your nick was present throughout. in case you didn't keep them yourself, you can find the logs at http://reisenweber.net/irclogs/libera/__covid-19/ | 13:11 |
| apocalypsenow | im not much for reading back | 13:13 |
| apocalypsenow | what was the conclusion now that I am here lol | 13:13 |
| apocalypsenow | who is responsible do you think ublx? | 13:13 |
| apocalypsenow | de-facto seems to indicate its the administering doctors responsibility | 13:15 |
| ublx | when i rummaged for research into the vascularisation of the deltoid area, the links i found spoke of studies with subject numbers in the low 10s of live subjects and cadavers | 13:15 |
| apocalypsenow | i say is the pharma company | 13:15 |
| apocalypsenow | the MD shouldnt know better by keeping up with the latest covid discussions, maybe | 13:15 |
| apocalypsenow | but we cant expect that to be the answer | 13:16 |
| ublx | professional clinicians will have keener insight into the representative validity of such anatomical studies, but i'm tempted to believe when the target number of vaccinations is in the billions, further elucidation of vascular variability is probably merited | 13:16 |
| apocalypsenow | we know even MDs vary in quality , the procedure should be dictated | 13:16 |
| apocalypsenow | not expected to just be picked up | 13:16 |
| ublx | time constraints might be a factor that will show up in epidemiological outcome. if you have to administer a billion shots, and each of those takes 10 seconds longer, and the necessary training and practise takes.. well i have no idea | 13:19 |
| ublx | none of my vaccine shots were administered by a doctor | 13:19 |
| apocalypsenow | i think aspiration isnt special training, im might be wrontg | 13:20 |
| apocalypsenow | and time to administer doses doesnt seem to be an issue after the fact | 13:20 |
| apocalypsenow | there are more doses than people willing to get them | 13:20 |
| apocalypsenow | yah i also didnt think MDs administered them contrary to de-facto | 13:20 |
| apocalypsenow | would be an even less skilled person | 13:21 |
| apocalypsenow | a nurse? | 13:21 |
| apocalypsenow | MD shoudl know better, but MDs arent administering and there is nothing in place forcing them to know better and to then pass that on to their practice | 13:21 |
| ublx | even various volunteers, during high pitched speed efforts | 13:21 |
| apocalypsenow | yah showing an even bigger need for caution | 13:22 |
| apocalypsenow | they arent people that know better , highly trained , all of the time, is another perspective | 13:22 |
| apocalypsenow | higher chance of risk | 13:22 |
| ublx | my last shot was by an american nurse (i am not in america) whose mask was hanging off the end of her nose, and who said she thought masks were pointless. not a comforting moment | 13:23 |
| apocalypsenow | yah some MDs think that too | 13:24 |
| apocalypsenow | why we cant just trust a title | 13:24 |
| apocalypsenow | or an education | 13:24 |
| apocalypsenow | to say its consistent or their is consensus on anything covid related is a challenge | 13:25 |
| apocalypsenow | im not sure where I fall on masks | 13:26 |
| apocalypsenow | maybe could for short term, but for years I think completely misses the point | 13:26 |
| ublx | what point is that? | 13:27 |
| ublx | does can be the difference between variolation and death - masks reduce dose | 13:27 |
| ublx | just to be dramatic about it | 13:27 |
| ublx | ahem. *does->dose | 13:28 |
| apocalypsenow | yah an an over simplified way | 13:28 |
| apocalypsenow | thats why its ok short term | 13:28 |
| ublx | well it begins to seem moot as mask wearing becomes more and more a rarity | 13:30 |
| ublx | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 makes a case for permanent caution though | 13:31 |
| apocalypsenow | right adoption was also low | 13:33 |
| apocalypsenow | and mostly cloth masks | 13:34 |
| apocalypsenow | so masking generally doesnt work when those are true | 13:34 |
| apocalypsenow | are masks supposed to help with long covid? | 13:46 |
| ublx | not getting covid is supposed to help with long covid | 13:47 |
| apocalypsenow | oh ok | 13:47 |
| apocalypsenow | yah i wouldnt imagine after you get it, it would be recomended | 13:47 |
| ublx | idk why. the natural expectation is that each time you get covid, your health and reserve will be irrecoverably degraded | 13:49 |
| apocalypsenow | irrecoverable im not sure, but also the same fear is associated with the vacccine each booster | 14:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Saudi Arabia: +31 cases, +1 deaths, +3701 tests since 23 hours ago | 14:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: Weekly Scientific Discussion Thread - January 16, 2023: This weekly thread is for scientific discussion pertaining to COVID-19. Please post questions about the science of this virus and disease here to collect them for others and clear up post space for [... want %more?] → https://old.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/10ddylg/weekly_scientific_discussion_thread_january_16/ | 14:05 |
| ublx | young healthy people not engaged in athletic exploration of human performance limits might not notice say a 0.5% reduction in respiratory reserve. doesn't mean it didn't happen. the tenth time it happens..? might notice | 14:11 |
| ublx | many of your body's organic functions don't become symptomatic until they are severely degraded | 14:12 |
| apocalypsenow | yep, died suddenly | 14:13 |
| apocalypsenow | seemingly healthy young peo-ple | 14:13 |
| ublx | at least your 'seemingly' is a nod to the unknowability of your 'healthy' | 14:15 |
| apocalypsenow | well i should say by all other measures healthy | 14:15 |
| apocalypsenow | theirs always rare genetic and allergenic reactions | 14:16 |
| apocalypsenow | that dont have a signal we know | 14:16 |
| ublx | and autopsies | 14:16 |
| apocalypsenow | yes we should be doing more of those | 14:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Theo Sanderson (@theosanderson): SARS-CoV-2 nucleotide entropy in the UK is the highest it has been since the first wave of Omicron pic.twitter.com/AyVtF2uQSl → https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1614979758575521793 | 14:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Theo Sanderson (@theosanderson): In a year's time the most common circulating SARS-CoV-2 lineage will be: → https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1614983919312728065 | 15:03 |
| apocalypsenow | autopsies might be the best/only way to distinguish between a vaccine death and a covid death when there is uncertainty | 15:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Iran: +145 cases since a day ago — Afghanistan: +93 cases, +3 deaths since 4 days ago | 15:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Efficacy and effectiveness of case isolation and quarantine during a growing phase of the COVID-19 epidemic in Finland → https://old.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/10dfp4j/efficacy_and_effectiveness_of_case_isolation_and/ | 15:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Theo Sanderson (@theosanderson): @TWenseleers I think technically that would descend from Omicron (though ofc only in part) → https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1614995607407529984 | 15:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Tom Wenseleers (@TWenseleers): @theosanderson I am always intruiged by that long tail of old variants (e.g. Delta, Omicron BA.1) at low frequency (0.01-0.1%) - presumably in patients with a chronic infection? Haven't seen any indication yet of the Delta curve making a real upswing again [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/TWenseleers/status/1614996119762751491 | 15:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: COVID-19 booster doses could significantly reduce the incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection among young adults → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/10dgmlv/covid19_booster_doses_could_significantly_reduce/ | 16:03 |
| pwr22 | Hmmm, what exactly would one be looking for in an autopsy to confirm a "vaccine death"? | 16:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Apexxnar, pneumococcal polysaccharide conjugate vaccine (20-valent, adsorbed), Pneumococcal Infections, Date of authorisation: 14/02/2022, Revision: 3, Status: Authorised → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/apexxnar | 16:13 |
| AFI[m] | an antivaxer "doctor" doing the autopsy obv. | 16:15 |
| AFI[m] | everybody knows the vaccine is safe and effective, i bet every sudden death they screech about was a covid death | 16:15 |
| AFI[m] | that's why they don't want testing anymore so we can't tell they were a positive case | 16:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: Website tracks COVID-19 in wastewater across Illinois → https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV/comments/10dh1zz/website_tracks_covid19_in_wastewater_across/ | 16:23 |
| apocalypsenow | i think the idea is there would be some marker that the vaccine was responsible vs covid | 16:24 |
| apocalypsenow | I think its still unknown exactly how to tell the difference | 16:24 |
| apocalypsenow | if you are an anti vax doctor you better be able to explain why | 16:26 |
| AFI[m] | doctors have been able to tell it was covid death all these years they would tell us if it was the vaccine | 16:28 |
| AFI[m] | antivax chasing their own shadow at this point. so dumb | 16:29 |
| apocalypsenow | doctors are saying both those things | 16:29 |
| apocalypsenow | and some are antivax, so which doctors to listen to | 16:29 |
| AFI[m] | listen to the ones actually trying to help you instead of the ones profiting on conspiracy | 16:31 |
| AFI[m] | check if they have stocks in horse paste company LOL | 16:31 |
| apocalypsenow | if that is your take, remember no one is making more profit than the pharma companies | 16:32 |
| AFI[m] | no it is government funded | 16:32 |
| AFI[m] | next u say people getting rich from welfare hahaha | 16:32 |
| apocalypsenow | i dont buy the rich get rich by imposing welfare on minorities | 16:33 |
| apocalypsenow | thats its necessary for their power | 16:33 |
| AFI[m] | tell me how doctors could tell it was a covid death and there you go that's how you tell if it's vaccine death | 16:35 |
| AFI[m] | Checkmate | 16:35 |
| apocalypsenow | because of the similar outcomes? | 16:38 |
| AFI[m] | do I need to spell it out? | 16:41 |
| AFI[m] | they were able to figure out if someone died from covid they can obviously figure out if someone died from the vaccine | 16:41 |
| AFI[m] | but oh hey look I don't see some vaccine death toll do i?? | 16:41 |
| apocalypsenow | yes you need to be clearer | 16:41 |
| pwr22 | The vaccine is relatively very safe indeed. Though there are risks to everything and this is no exception | 16:42 |
| apocalypsenow | how do they measure some dies from covid? | 16:42 |
| pwr22 | I'd take that risk every time though | 16:42 |
| pwr22 | As I have done | 16:42 |
| Tuvix | Macro-scale epidemiology doesn't really work the way you're suggesting. You need to account for co-founding factors, and that's what the death tolls are looking at. It's also possible to aggregate data and plot (we have very public analysis of this in 1st world countries, by the way) the odds of dying from a SARS-CoV-2 infection unvaccinated vs. vaccinated. | 16:43 |
| pwr22 | The risk of covid is much higher, especially in a world where everyone didn't get vaccinated and it spread even more uncontrolled | 16:43 |
| Tuvix | The data is here very clear after 2+ years of accounting: in macro-terms, you are much worse off being exposed unvaccinatd. | 16:43 |
| AFI[m] | I don't know the science behind it Google it I guess | 16:43 |
| AFI[m] | but they have a way | 16:43 |
| pwr22 | apocalypsenow: Are you suggesting some people who get covid, and then die, are dying because they took the vaccine and otherwise wouldn't have? | 16:43 |
| apocalypsenow | i thought all they had was dieing with covid, not from covid | 16:44 |
| Tuvix | This doesn't mean that the vaccines are 'completely harmless in all cases' -- it's even possible in very (very, very) rare cases to have serious complications. | 16:44 |
| apocalypsenow | as far as an empirical test goes | 16:44 |
| pwr22 | Spoiler alert: most deaths are tallied that way and aren't necessarily super obvious | 16:44 |
| Tuvix | However, it's a bit like seatbelts. The same argument of "personal freedom" was made when seatbelt laws became common. Yet seatbelts obviously save way more than they maim or kill. | 16:44 |
| AFI[m] | oh wow apocalypse if you wanna call them deaths WITH vaccine go ahead haha | 16:45 |
| pwr22 | I expect a long time in the future there'll be something similar when we decide to restrict human access to controlling dangerous vehicles to only more essential / less automatable scenarios | 16:45 |
| apocalypsenow | yah it would be more accurate | 16:46 |
| pwr22 | But it will almost certainly be the right call then too | 16:46 |
| apocalypsenow | i think that is a start | 16:46 |
| AFI[m] | well then that's pretty much every death right now lol | 16:46 |
| AFI[m] | great job | 16:46 |
| apocalypsenow | yep, yet that was used as fear mongering | 16:46 |
| AFI[m] | data analyzed | 16:46 |
| pwr22 | There does exist data on fatalities in the vaccinated / unvaccinated population | 16:46 |
| apocalypsenow | conflating covid cases with covid death | 16:47 |
| apocalypsenow | did a lot of damage | 16:47 |
| pwr22 | It very much showed the vaccines are a good idea | 16:47 |
| apocalypsenow | some say we still havent recovered from that mistake | 16:47 |
| Tuvix | The argument to downplay COVID in deaths is what China is/has been doing. And the data from that country is very close to worthless, although at least they're reporting _some_ level of truth (just, not very much.) | 16:47 |
| pwr22 | Also there is much data showing more people die of covid than not having covid | 16:47 |
| Tuvix | Your time here seems to be wishing that the rest of the world lied (erm: "mislead" perhaps?) their population like the CCP did to theirs. That doesn't seem to be very open or transparant to me. | 16:47 |
| Tuvix | On paper, sure, China looks to be handling the pandemic very well after opening up many of their draconian restrictions. In practice: that's simply not the case. | 16:48 |
| Tuvix | You can't play word-games and expect outcomes to change. | 16:48 |
| apocalypsenow | plus its a completely different data set | 16:48 |
| pwr22 | So logically together, if someone is sick AND has covid AND was vaccinated then the cuplability is more strongly associated to covid than the vaccine. Even in the cases where unusual thrombolytic events occur | 16:48 |
| apocalypsenow | they arent "vaccinated" | 16:48 |
| AFI[m] | "draconian restrictions" what saving lives? | 16:48 |
| Tuvix | AFI[m]: vaccinating their population with effective vaccines would have saved more; nevermind the economic impact and cost of killing people with the lockdowns. The protests were specifically becuase the impact on living was not sustainable. | 16:49 |
| AFI[m] | yeah they didn't go far enough then we should have given them moderna | 16:50 |
| AFI[m] | but oh no can't help scary china | 16:51 |
| ublx | the US literally just offered pfizer to China. this was a few days ago. China declined | 16:51 |
| Tuvix | They didn't want western-vaccines and developed their own, which was far less effective. That's another factor to the puzzle here, because their people were also (and, arguably somewhat rightly) concerned at the lack of transparancy in data. | 16:51 |
| Tuvix | Right. | 16:51 |
| apocalypsenow | less vaccine injury too potentially | 16:52 |
| apocalypsenow | maybe they were satisfied with the risk profile of the rna ones | 16:52 |
| Tuvix | Ecept that's shown to be incorrect in the data; did you read nothing I said above about comparing outcomes in aggregate? | 16:52 |
| ublx | it's apparent to China perhaps just as it is apparent here that there will be difficulty getting rid of stockpiles of vaccines - perhaps China didn't feel like helping out the US and EU in this regard | 16:53 |
| Tuvix | China's vacine has a shocking low rate of protection against severe outcomes and death; that's not an effective strategy, which is why they more or less had to keep up the harsh lockdowns with military support. Or do what they're starting to, and let it run more uncontrolled through the population with the not suprising consequences of straining healthcare and costing lives. | 16:54 |
| apocalypsenow | but they lost way less lives than the west | 16:55 |
| apocalypsenow | apparently no one did as well as china | 16:55 |
| apocalypsenow | according to china atleast | 16:55 |
| apocalypsenow | you could be on the right track, same reasons masks and lock downs are probably not wise, just delaying the inevitable and it could be worse when it finally does rip through the population | 16:56 |
| Tuvix | Masks have a major impact when used properly. The real issue is that weak recommendations didn't really help. | 16:56 |
| apocalypsenow | reminds me of the hygiene hypothesis, https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/childhood-asthma/expert-answers/hygiene-hypothesis/faq-20058102 | 16:57 |
| apocalypsenow | and makes me wonder what damange could be done to kids if they arent getting their normal everyday boosters from mother nature | 16:57 |
| apocalypsenow | does that have a long term impact on the development of the immune system, what are the short term impacts, and what about adults | 16:57 |
| apocalypsenow | all i think are very interesting topics | 16:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bosnia and Herz.: +29 cases, +2 deaths since 2 days ago | 16:59 |
| Tuvix | Are you really saying that exposing children to SARS-CoV-2 is good? Because you seem to be suggesting that, and this is really not what this channel is about. | 16:59 |
| Tuvix | You also seem to be trying to throw as many unrelated concepts together as quickly as you can to see what "sticks" for your argument. You change topics as soon as you realize you're betting on the wrong one. | 17:00 |
| Tuvix | There's a good adage that applies here: "The amount of effort required to refute falsehoods is an order of magnitude greater than that to produce it." | 17:01 |
| Tuvix | So, you've now linked a document that, to summarize, says "keeping children in a pristine environment could stunt their immune systems." Yes, that's true. But *needlessly* exposing them to to disease that we cannot (even with vaccination) completely protect against, is a really, really bad idea. | 17:01 |
| apocalypsenow | your debate style of inserting all your own opinions on what I think is less than useful | 17:02 |
| apocalypsenow | its hard to debate you because you are making conclusions i didnt make | 17:02 |
| apocalypsenow | i like the spirit though | 17:02 |
| apocalypsenow | good work | 17:03 |
| ublx | just for perspective, asthma can be initiated by viral infection | 17:03 |
| Tuvix | You did indeed make the conclution above, by tying masks to kids not "getting their normal everyday boosters from mother nature." You said that right after claiming that "masks […] are probably not wise." Stop trying to back-peddle here. | 17:04 |
| apocalypsenow | I htink there is vigorous debate to be had about masks and children specifically as it relates to the risk of covid and others | 17:04 |
| ublx | i don't mean an asthma attack. i mean asthma absent prior history | 17:04 |
| apocalypsenow | both can be true, mask have risks and covid does too | 17:05 |
| ublx | masks have risks? like choking risks or something? | 17:05 |
| apocalypsenow | its a not really binary matter it exists in a range | 17:05 |
| Tuvix | Living on the planet has a risk; what are you proposing as an alternative? That's a straw-man argument with no useful meaning. | 17:06 |
| apocalypsenow | good point everythign has risk | 17:07 |
| apocalypsenow | we have to decide individually what that risks means to us | 17:07 |
| apocalypsenow | and what do to about it | 17:07 |
| apocalypsenow | if anything | 17:07 |
| apocalypsenow | and then we can also consider others in addition to ourselves | 17:07 |
| AFI[m] | no but you put us at risk | 17:08 |
| Tuvix | Not when that choice impacts other; that's where requiring healthcare providers not to do things that we know are likely to casue harm to patients for example is required. | 17:08 |
| apocalypsenow | everyone puts everyone at risk to some degree sure | 17:08 |
| AFI[m] | the vaccine and masking is to help others | 17:09 |
| ublx | maybe i just haven't had enough coffee to activate my imagination but what are these mask risks you speak of? | 17:09 |
| apocalypsenow | for kids? | 17:09 |
| ublx | for anyone | 17:09 |
| apocalypsenow | like i said i think the hygiene hypothesis is interesting | 17:10 |
| AFI[m] | the risk is identifying openly theyre antivax lol | 17:10 |
| apocalypsenow | i think during teh developmental period is more sensitive | 17:10 |
| AFI[m] | they are trying to hide | 17:10 |
| ublx | that then is a hypothetical risk | 17:10 |
| apocalypsenow | yes absolutely | 17:10 |
| apocalypsenow | language development is another one | 17:10 |
| ublx | sounds even more weakly hypothetical | 17:10 |
| apocalypsenow | linguistics and non verbal communication | 17:11 |
| apocalypsenow | not that weak | 17:11 |
| apocalypsenow | and its happenign duringa critical time period of development, just more reason to give pause of the potential risks | 17:11 |
| apocalypsenow | how about people that dont wash their cloth masks and re-use them? | 17:11 |
| ublx | guess they will get themselves a nice immune system boost, won't they | 17:12 |
| ublx | hypothetically speaking, of course | 17:12 |
| apocalypsenow | possibly or also self contamination | 17:12 |
| apocalypsenow | maybe amplifying exposure something they normally would be separated from | 17:13 |
| AFI[m] | LOL not scared of no coronavirus but scared of his own breath | 17:13 |
| apocalypsenow | or covid that im expelling | 17:13 |
| AFI[m] | the absolute state of antivaxxer haha | 17:13 |
| apocalypsenow | what if oyur normal body is ridding you of the viral particals | 17:13 |
| apocalypsenow | and you just take them back in | 17:13 |
| apocalypsenow | doesnt seem wise | 17:13 |
| AFI[m] | yes you are expelling covid that's what we're saying | 17:14 |
| apocalypsenow | and why do you have to wash the mask? | 17:14 |
| apocalypsenow | isnt it because a dirty mask is unhealthy? | 17:14 |
| apocalypsenow | so it would be better to have no mask if im expelling it | 17:15 |
| apocalypsenow | to protect myself | 17:15 |
| apocalypsenow | is one school of thought | 17:15 |
| AFI[m] | simple fix. Wash your mask like you wash your clothes u filthy animal | 17:15 |
| apocalypsenow | ok but the point is masks have a risk without washing it | 17:15 |
| apocalypsenow | no debate there | 17:15 |
| AFI[m] | so wash it | 17:15 |
| apocalypsenow | so obviuosly masks have some well known risks like not washing it | 17:15 |
| apocalypsenow | and other more hypothetical, or maybe not so hypothetical, like linguistic development for children | 17:16 |
| AFI[m] | risk because your stinky breath lol | 17:16 |
| apocalypsenow | im sure how well this subject is studied | 17:16 |
| apocalypsenow | stinky breatth, dental issues | 17:16 |
| apocalypsenow | another potential mask risk | 17:16 |
| AFI[m] | the dental issues are probably from eating all that horse paste chud | 17:18 |
| pwr22 | Kids being masked up was very much more significant for limiting spread rather than because of the specific risk to them. Not that the risk was zero but they also are an enormous vector for spread. Also why schools were often closed for some time. | 17:18 |
| apocalypsenow | hosre paste chud? | 17:18 |
| apocalypsenow | is that english | 17:18 |
| apocalypsenow | lol | 17:18 |
| AFI[m] | * horse paste, chud | 17:18 |
| apocalypsenow | still doesnt compute | 17:18 |
| AFI[m] | sry u can't read | 17:18 |
| AFI[m] | they didn't teach you that in the barn that they taught you vaccines are the mark of the beast? | 17:19 |
| ublx | ok lets reign in the tone a bit, AFI[m] | 17:19 |
| AFI[m] | ok sorry | 17:19 |
| ublx | also, rein | 17:19 |
| AFI[m] | apocalypsenow: sorry for antagonizing you. just frustrated | 17:20 |
| apocalypsenow | its ok, i enjoy the spirited debate | 17:20 |
| apocalypsenow | i dont take it personally | 17:20 |
| ublx | well | 17:22 |
| ublx | i don't think you (apocalypsenow) can benefit from this channel and i don't think this channel can benefit from you | 17:23 |
| ublx | if you remain you should remain silent | 17:23 |
| apocalypsenow | its been good so far | 17:23 |
| apocalypsenow | good interactions | 17:23 |
| ublx | what i'm saying is i will almost certainly remove you from the channel | 17:23 |
| ublx | before long | 17:23 |
| apocalypsenow | why though? | 17:23 |
| apocalypsenow | are these not good topics? | 17:23 |
| ublx | i don't think you (apocalypsenow) can benefit from this channel and i don't think this channel can benefit from you | 17:24 |
| apocalypsenow | what did i say that would make you remove me, im confused | 17:24 |
| ublx | ^ this is why | 17:24 |
| apocalypsenow | ive benefited | 17:24 |
| apocalypsenow | ive gotten sources, and have given sources | 17:24 |
| apocalypsenow | anyone who is listening is also benefiting | 17:24 |
| apocalypsenow | debate always benefits | 17:24 |
| ublx | this is a curious species of remaining silent | 17:24 |
| apocalypsenow | can you be more specfic of what we shouldnt talk about in this channel? | 17:25 |
| apocalypsenow | i thought it was for open debate of these ideas | 17:25 |
| apocalypsenow | https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/blob/master/COVID-19-chat.md | 17:25 |
| ublx | i assess you as either not inclined or not able to arrive at evidenced based theory, but manifestly willing to be voluble on subjects that animate you absent any apparent will to constrain your animus | 17:28 |
| ublx | flights of fancy can indeed be a charming way to spend one's time, but perhaps not in the context of enquiry into complex matters and not in the context of the spirit for which this channel is maintained | 17:29 |
| apocalypsenow | im all about the evidence, the more the better | 17:29 |
| apocalypsenow | keep it coming brotha | 17:29 |
| apocalypsenow | for example, If you don't believe that lockdowns are useful, or that masks are useful, or that various interventions are a good idea, feel free to discuss it. | 17:30 |
| apocalypsenow | i beleive those things are useful | 17:30 |
| apocalypsenow | this channel allows even more extremes than I am claiming | 17:30 |
| apocalypsenow | my discussion isnt so extreme, its well within the bounds of the channel as defined | 17:31 |
| apocalypsenow | but if you think it is, please give me specifics and I can adresss it | 17:31 |
| ublx | apparently i can't make you understand. my apologies | 17:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Doctors in Wales “can’t see end in sight” as urgent care only becomes norm: Working life in the NHS is worse than it has been for more than 20 years, doctors in Wales told The BMJ, and they “can’t see an end in sight.”GPs in both the north and south of the country said they had deferred much or even [... want %more?] → http://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p119.short | 17:51 |
| LjL-Matrix | @room anyone not actually interested in this room any longer is invited to leave in order to let us assess the amount of remaining interest so we can better determine how to shape this room in the future (more bot, less bot, no bot, no room). Equally if you feel that you do take value from this room in its current state, or in a different state, feel free to speak up about that. | 18:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Prof. Akiko Iwasaki (@VirusesImmunity): Amazing, timely, comprehensive, and evidence-based review - Long COVID: major findings, mechanisms and recommendations - by @ahandvanish @LisaAMcCorkell @juliamv @EricTopol. This is a #MustRead and is already my go-to review on #LongCovid. [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/1615044112608116736 | 18:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +1841 cases, +44 deaths since a day ago | 19:10 |
| pwr22 | <LjL-Matrix> "@room anyone not actually..." <- I like that it's here 🙂 | 19:32 |
| LjL-Matrix | pwr22: you win the prestigious "only op feeling the peasants are worthy enough to hear your opinion in public" prize | 19:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: FDA Fast Tracks Intranasal RSV Vaccine: This live-attenuated investigational vaccine was developed by Codagenix, which uses its codon de-optimization platform for its candidates. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/fda-fast-tracks-intranasal-rsv-vaccine | 19:37 |
| LjL-Matrix | de-facto: ^ why would they fast track one for RSV but the ones for COVID have been chugging along at snail pace for years? | 19:39 |
| pwr22 | <LjL-Matrix> "pwr22: you win the prestigious..." <- Lol | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: China’s COVID wave has probably peaked, model suggests → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/10dooii/chinas_covid_wave_has_probably_peaked_model/ | 20:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: All excess deaths in Singapore linked to recent COVID infection: Study → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/10dp0la/all_excess_deaths_in_singapore_linked_to_recent/ | 20:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from New Scientist: Spraying drugs up the nose may help heal the brain after a stroke: Antibody molecules may travel up nerve fibres that pass from the nose to the brain in experiments on rats20 → https://www.newscientist.com/article/2354941-spraying-drugs-up-the-nose-may-help-heal-the-brain-after-a-stroke/ | 21:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Important work and by @SystemsVirology to characterize the XBB.1.5 variant. Fortunately, our immunity wall in the US is helping to blunt its impact to be much less than Omicron BA.1. Could be even less w/ uptake of bivalent vaccines and [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1615085459033718784 | 21:43 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Montenegro: +99 cases since 2 days ago | 22:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: COVID-19 Vaccination May Reduce Hepatitis B Surface Antigen: Some chronic hepatitis B patients experienced a dramatic decrease in hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg) after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine. Could there be a correlation? → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/covid-19-vaccination-may-reduce-hepatitis-b-surface-antigen | 22:12 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +904 cases, +1 deaths since 3 hours ago | 23:07 |
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