pwr22 | It's like anti-biotic resistant, if you just "half-treat" the pathogen you are giving natural selection the optimal environment to combat whatever you current treatment is! | 00:00 |
---|---|---|
pwr22 | *your | 00:00 |
lastshell | the virus hopefully mutate like the spanish flu | 00:01 |
lastshell | less lethal | 00:01 |
pwr22 | Yeah I hope so too but I think the time frame for that sort of thing happening is historically 4+ years | 00:03 |
pwr22 | And we don't know what all this evolutionary pressure from vaccines and modern medical interventions, especially in people with depleted immune systems whose bodies profile a fertile ground for evolution with long lived covid infections, are going to do | 00:04 |
pwr22 | I also hope we take some learnings from this pandemic because we're probably gonna see a novel flu again in the next 100 years | 00:05 |
pwr22 | We have already avian/swine scares like we have with coronaviruses (sars, mers et al.) | 00:06 |
pwr22 | Its probably just a matter of time | 00:06 |
himesama | adn the strategic ppi stockpile was allowed to rot --- 15:06 <pwr22> We have already avian/swine scares like we have with coronaviruses (sars, mers et al.) | 00:07 |
pwr22 | Oh dera | 00:08 |
himesama | if another pandemic occurs right now humanity is kind of in trouble | 00:08 |
himesama | but indeed perhaps some lessons will be learned | 00:09 |
himesama | there is a saying in the us that the us always does the right thing (after trying everything else first) though | 00:09 |
himesama | if only politics could be separated out | 00:10 |
dTal | shit, the internet broke | 02:13 |
lunatunes | Whoa | 04:15 |
joerg | moin | 12:22 |
joerg | Brainstorm: status | 12:29 |
joerg | %help | 12:29 |
Brainstorm | joerg: Hi, I am LjL's bot! Say %modules or %commands to me in private to see my features. | 12:29 |
joerg | no more news, brainstorm? | 12:30 |
Sky_Net | Hello all. Bad news from Moscow, more than 800 died in country yesterday, peak number for all times... | 13:22 |
Sky_Net | and mayor cancelling anti-covid public regulations because elections in September..government afraid to lose more popularity | 13:24 |
Sky_Net | %cases Moscow | 13:25 |
Brainstorm | Sky_Net: Moscow, Russia has had 1.5 million confirmed cases (12.1% of all people) and 26423 deaths (1.7% of cases) as of 5 hours ago. +2294 cases, +56 deaths since a day ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Moscow | 13:25 |
Brainstorm | Sky_Net: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Moscow, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it. | 13:25 |
de-facto | how are vaccinations progressing? | 13:38 |
specing | Sky_Net: probably they decided that vaccines are available and that people who refuse can just die | 13:39 |
specing | like BoJo did | 13:39 |
de-facto | for every 5 Russians only 1 is fully vaccinated | 13:40 |
joerg | %tr <de Die Gesundheitsämter können nicht mehr alle Infektionsketten nachvollziehen. https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-08-12.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 13:47 |
Brainstorm | joerg, German to English: The health authorities can no longer trace all chains of infection. https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-08-12.pdf?__blob=publicationFile (MyMemory, Google) | 13:47 |
Sky_Net | Vaccine is available, but i think people stopped doing it, because mayor revoked his anti covid regulations (no one could go to restaraunt without QR-code) | 13:50 |
Sky_Net | We had a slight peak of vaccinations when this regulations was announced, but after people started to vaccinate, he revoked law... | 13:50 |
Sky_Net | So why should anti-coviders do vaccine if they aren't repressed? | 13:51 |
Sky_Net | (i mean, rights violation) | 13:51 |
Sky_Net | (i mean, rights violation) | 13:51 |
Sky_Net | Globally, infection will spread in this region..more bio-chambers for virus mutation, expect new variants | 13:52 |
joerg | https://i.imgur.com/dQc1Igf.png | 13:56 |
de-facto | Sky_Net, do we have vaccination rate data (number of given first/second doses) over time for Russia/Moscow? | 13:56 |
avu | Russia uses its own vaccine, right? Haven't read much about its risks/effectiveness as it's not approved where I live | 13:57 |
specing | there are 4 or so russian vaccines nowadays? | 13:58 |
avu | I only ever heard about "Sputnik" | 13:58 |
de-facto | i think some news said 83% against delta | 13:58 |
de-facto | not sure about the endpoint of that claim (e.g. infection, symptoms, hospitalization, etc) | 14:00 |
specing | assume death, then :P | 14:02 |
de-facto | no that endpoint probably is much better than 83% | 14:07 |
de-facto | i assume symptomatic infection or sth like that | 14:07 |
joerg | seems brainstorm is broken, no? no more messages about new publications etc | 14:09 |
avu | do you mean the stuff the bot posts in ##covid-ticker ? | 14:12 |
joerg | sucks | 14:12 |
joerg | just noticed it | 14:12 |
joerg | I'm not going to set up yet another channel in my logging, and I gonna remove this channel since logging it is pointless | 14:13 |
joerg | discussion by cross-reference to another channel never worked in IRC | 14:15 |
joerg | a pity to see this channel falling apart | 14:16 |
joerg | o/ | 14:20 |
pwr22 | The channel isn't really broken. LjL disabled the news posting yesterday and I hope that he will choose to bring it back some time | 16:04 |
pwr22 | 🙂 | 16:04 |
Sky_Net | In Russia we have only Sputnik, other 2 are extremely hard to find because when all rushed to vaccinate, they chose NOT Sputnik. | 16:06 |
Sky_Net | Also there's a story about family who died from NOT Sputnik vaccine, all family members except teen girl | 16:07 |
Sky_Net | 4 members | 16:07 |
specing | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Russia | 16:23 |
specing | Sky_Net: epivac? covivac? | 16:24 |
qkall[m] | <pwr22> "The channel isn't really broken." <- thanks for this i thought i was crazy... i signed in here in between seeing the bots workign and this... i was so damn confused lol. | 16:29 |
de-facto | .title https://ncovtrack.com/vaccine/russia/federal-subjects | 16:31 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From ncovtrack.com: Russia: Vaccine Live Map - Federal Subjects | 16:31 |
de-facto | .title https://ncovtrack.com/vaccine/russia | 16:32 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From ncovtrack.com: Russia: Vaccine Live Progress: Latest Statistics, Charts and Manufacturers | 16:32 |
Sky_Net | Epivac = Sputnik | 16:49 |
Sky_Net | ohh | 16:49 |
Sky_Net | i may say wrong | 16:49 |
Sky_Net | they didn't die from Sputnik, but from other one | 16:50 |
Sky_Net | Strong one which contain weak virus.. | 16:50 |
Sky_Net | Altrough all of family members had serious diseases (diabetics, etc), public opinion immideately swinged against government vaccination program | 16:51 |
Sky_Net | You see, pandemic is political issue in Russia, not medical | 16:51 |
Guest34 | hi | 16:54 |
Guest34 | I have cold+ dry cough(for almost 5 days) and some times head ache and fever when not consuming paracetamol....Could it be covid? I touched my father face and worried if he also get it | 16:55 |
genera | why not test with some of the 1 $ tests? | 16:56 |
Guest34 | I did and report will take 1+ week here | 16:57 |
avu | a test does sound like a slightly better idea than remote diagnosis by random people on IRC :) | 16:57 |
Guest34 | then why the f this channel here | 16:57 |
Guest34 | what to talk about | 16:58 |
genera | i meant the self tests. | 16:58 |
avu | to talk about news and papers, not to diagnose people I would think | 16:58 |
genera | that i can buy in tthe supermarket. and which take 15 minutes | 16:58 |
Guest34 | genera what are they? | 16:58 |
genera | not PCR :-) | 16:59 |
avu | what exactly is available where depends on where you are in the world I think | 16:59 |
genera | some antigen immuno assay i think | 16:59 |
Guest34 | genera Thank you | 17:01 |
de-facto | transmission is not only over touching surfaces, it mainly is per aerosol, imagine invisible smoke coming out of everybodies mouth, if someone is infected this aerosol can be infectious for others to inhale | 17:03 |
de-facto | also spreads via bigger droplets from respiratory tract, e.g. everybody spits a lot of those when speaking etc | 17:04 |
de-facto | of course contamination via touching surfaces is possible, but afaik not the main transmission path, yet ofc it depends on the environment | 17:05 |
de-facto | .title https://www.covid19india.org/state/AP | 17:05 |
Brainstorm | de-facto, the URL could not be loaded | 17:05 |
de-facto | so Guest34 in your place i would try to isolate from others until symptoms resolved and you feel healthy again | 17:08 |
Guest34 | de-factowe gt 2 bhk and I locked in one bedroom thats nt sufficient? | 17:08 |
Guest34 | its very big home | 17:09 |
Guest34 | we got* | 17:09 |
Guest34 | I am also getting back pain | 17:10 |
de-facto | its spreads via aerosol, so its hard to tell, if you would assume someone else could smell a imaginary cigarette you would smoke, there would be a bath connecting both respiratory tracts | 17:10 |
de-facto | transmission path connecting both respiratory tracts | 17:11 |
dTal | wow rude | 17:19 |
lastshell | Guest34 are you vaccinated ? | 17:32 |
dTal | lastshell, they're gone | 17:32 |
dTal | just closed the window | 17:32 |
lastshell | I disable joins, parts, quits, nicks to have a clean irc | 17:34 |
lastshell | does vaccine wears off after 4 or 6 months ? (mRNA) | 17:35 |
IndoAnon | de-facto: are you there? | 17:52 |
de-facto | yes | 17:56 |
LjL-Matrix | Well so long again joerg, he tells me to chill down but he's hardly better | 18:06 |
LjL-Matrix | So if you want Brainstorm and RSS news, updates and tweets, type "%addpoint covidnews", if you don't want them and prefer them to stay in ##covid-ticker / #covid-updates:matrix.org, type "%rmpoint covidnews". Once, I can see multiple posts, and in PM it will do something different. I'll let it run for a while I guess. | 18:07 |
LjL-Matrix | Also if joerg thought the only good reason for logging this channel was the links maybe he should have been logging ##coronalinks to begin with | 18:08 |
de-facto | %addpoint covidnews | 18:10 |
Brainstorm | covidnews: +1/-0, 1 | 18:10 |
de-facto | %addpoint ljlrocks | 18:12 |
LjL | %rmpoint ljlrocks | 18:13 |
Brainstorm | ljlrocks: +0/-1, -1 | 18:13 |
de-facto | %addpoint ljlrocks | 18:14 |
LjL | maybe he just disagrees, not sure why it isn't working | 18:14 |
LjL | Brainstorm, reload scores | 18:16 |
Brainstorm | LjL: <module 'scores' from '/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/modules/scores.py'> (version: 2021-08-13 16:15:52) | 18:16 |
de-facto | %scores covidnews | 18:16 |
Brainstorm | covidnews: +1/-0, 1 | 18:16 |
LjL | de-facto, try again? | 18:16 |
de-facto | %addpoint ljlrocks | 18:16 |
Brainstorm | ljlrocks: +1/-1, 0 | 18:16 |
de-facto | %addpoint ljlrocks | 18:18 |
de-facto | %scores ljlrocks | 18:19 |
IndoAnon | oops | 19:12 |
LjL | de-facto, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261929v1 "We tested participants for anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies targeting the spike (S) or nucleocapsid (N) proteins (Roche Elecsys immunoassays)" so they really can assess COVID infection and S-protein from vaccines separately if they want to | 19:19 |
de-facto | nice yeah as long as the antibodies are over the detection threshold of their tests and the majority of vaccines does not include N-protein epitopes (i guess inactivated full SARS-CoV-2 vaccines would also produce N-protein antibodies) | 19:28 |
Samnzdat | O, this should be fun. | 19:32 |
Samnzdat | The True Believers snap up all the bullshit "virus" channel names early. | 19:33 |
IndoAnon | de-facto: do you find something similar to https://yewtu.be/watch?v=pd1Mk0zwil0 ? | 19:38 |
de-facto | find something similar? | 19:40 |
de-facto | over a year ago i warned about the window for herd immunity is closing due to the phylogenetic tree diversifying into a growing number of sub-lineages each specializing in its own ways, i was always saying we need to hurry with a maximum rate globally synchronized vaccination campaign that holds down incidence after it was brought down by NPIs | 19:44 |
de-facto | we do the opposite of that, hence the result will not be herd immunity | 19:46 |
mci64 | anyway, we all are going die! | 19:46 |
de-facto | sure sooner or later :P | 19:46 |
de-facto | there are interesting papers about genetic signs of ancient coronavirus epidemics localized in certain populations many thousands of years ago | 19:48 |
de-facto | due to natural selection they left their marks in the genome of those populations | 19:48 |
de-facto | .title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.16.385401v2.full | 19:49 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: An ancient viral epidemic involving host coronavirus interacting genes more than 20,000 years ago in East Asia | bioRxiv | 19:49 |
IndoAnon | de-facto: Well, a year ago I was underfire for suggesting the possibility of it being a lab leak | 19:51 |
mci64 | anyway guys, covid is great business of someones and they keep people in fear | 19:51 |
twomoon | hi IndoAnon | 19:52 |
IndoAnon | twomoon: well, hello | 19:52 |
de-facto | yet fortunately SARS-CoV-2 has not such a high fatality rate like other CoVs (e.g. SARS-CoV-1 or MERS-CoV) hence probably will not be much of a selection before humans are able to reproduce their genes | 19:52 |
twomoon | kabarmu gimana | 19:53 |
IndoAnon | baik baik aja | 19:53 |
twomoon | stay sane sir | 19:53 |
IndoAnon | To others, I'm insane | 19:54 |
de-facto | why IndoAnon ? | 19:54 |
de-facto | hard burden in Indonesia there with COVID? | 19:54 |
IndoAnon | I don't know... From being different v | 19:54 |
IndoAnon | :v | 19:54 |
twomoon | due to being the only anak indo who uses IRC | 19:55 |
twomoon | lol j/k | 19:55 |
de-facto | how are things going there IndoAnon ? | 19:55 |
IndoAnon | It's certainly easing right now, especially on jakarta. It went by 1/10th | 19:55 |
de-facto | oh glad to hear that | 19:55 |
IndoAnon | twomoon: Idk, Am I the only indo who post on 4chan and have IRC? | 19:56 |
IndoAnon | Ya, klo discord sepertinya semua orang punya wkwk | 19:56 |
de-facto | lets stick with English so everyone can understand :D | 19:57 |
IndoAnon | And, it's pretty bad on rural area, de-facto. I lost few acquaintances >40YO | 19:58 |
de-facto | oh i am sorry to hear that | 19:59 |
IndoAnon | Don't be sorry. I, at some point have told them to not went back to their hometown or visit someone else and detach their mask | 20:00 |
twomoon | IndoAnon, that i've seen, yeah | 20:00 |
twomoon | there are a few on quora tho | 20:00 |
IndoAnon | Hmm, about what, twomoon? | 20:00 |
twomoon | about? | 20:01 |
twomoon | what do you mean? | 20:01 |
IndoAnon | people who went to their hometown/village and died there? | 20:01 |
IndoAnon | I mean, quora stuff | 20:01 |
twomoon | tidak, just random topics | 20:01 |
IndoAnon | Oh, ok lol | 20:01 |
twomoon | like jobs in indonesia, lifestyle | 20:01 |
twomoon | laws | 20:01 |
de-facto | do you know about hospital capacity usage IndoAnon ? | 20:02 |
IndoAnon | pedulilindungi apps is weird too | 20:02 |
twomoon | owww tidak pernah hear about that | 20:02 |
IndoAnon | The government arbitrarily set the quota | 20:02 |
de-facto | i guess there is not enough in rural areas to give people the treatment they require in order to survive it? | 20:02 |
IndoAnon | de-facto: That, I don't know much. But, imagine managing small rural clinics, then someone who got coronad visit your office, and other patients got infected | 20:03 |
de-facto | yeah especially with the infectiousness of Delta it spreads fast | 20:04 |
IndoAnon | Eventually, they would be referred to small hospital. But, there's probably no ICU. So, the medication is only iv drips and oxygen tank | 20:05 |
twomoon | are you avoiding the post office these days de-facto ? | 20:05 |
twomoon | restaurants, post office, offices? | 20:05 |
de-facto | not really, i regularly have contact to other people in supermarket, post office, university etc | 20:06 |
IndoAnon | Then they would get referred to regency's hospital. Probably with ICU beds in tens, max hundred. | 20:06 |
de-facto | but i always wear FFP2 or sometimes FFP3 mask | 20:06 |
de-facto | and i make sure it fits correctly | 20:06 |
de-facto | I do avoid close contact or dense crowds though | 20:07 |
de-facto | e.g. i for sure would never go in a club and do party | 20:07 |
de-facto | (I did enjoy that before, but those times are over post COVID, its just not possible anymore) | 20:08 |
twomoon | nice mask heh | 20:09 |
de-facto | i am fully vaccinated, but i dont want to contribute to spreading it | 20:09 |
mci64 | I don't care about this fascistic covid restrictions and i never will live in pandemic fear. | 20:09 |
IndoAnon | Sorry for the blogpost, but it's the sad truth that many villagers will die even with only severe symptoms due to them seeking help at the last few days of their life or medical doctors who doesn't know how to treat it + unable to stock up on basics such as ivermectin, HCQ, and other stuff | 20:10 |
twomoon | eventually virus will evolve toward just affecting nasal tissue | 20:10 |
IndoAnon | the spike protein will stay | 20:11 |
twomoon | because vaccines are successful in preventing lung tissue infection | 20:11 |
twomoon | what blog post? | 20:12 |
de-facto | mci64, if people dont behave in a sane way by acting responsible by themselves its the duty of governments to protect the interests (such as preventing harm to health and economy) for majorities, the alternative we were able to observe many times by now, and its definitely nothing one would wish to the most bad enemy | 20:13 |
IndoAnon | twomoon: are you implying those who got spike protein therapeutics but get infected; the virus only infect their upper respiratory system + bronchial? | 20:13 |
mci64 | de-facto, it is fine, it is your opinion and lock yourself because of the flu. | 20:14 |
de-facto | its about the interests of majorities | 20:15 |
twomoon | that's what we've been seeing so far IndoAnon | 20:15 |
LjL | mci64, if you don't think covid is "a thing" or warrants attention or is no more than the flu, please take the door | 20:15 |
de-facto | its not an opinion, its what we all can observe independently | 20:15 |
twomoon | but more generally i think the therapeutics put selective pressure on the evolution of the virus and the virus will tend toward mainly infecting nasal tissue like rhinovirus and other coronaviruses | 20:16 |
IndoAnon | that's quite a proposition, twomoon. But I wonder how the symptom tree would be like | 20:16 |
mci64 | de-facto, we everybody know what the pseudo virus about... | 20:17 |
twomoon | well i don't know what's going to happen but i'm trying to think of it like darwin would | 20:17 |
LjL | twomoon, i don't know much about therapeutics, but the vaccines don't entirely prevent system-wide infection as apparently the people who get infected (fewer than unvaccinated, for sure, but still considerable amounts) only have about 1/2 the chances of ending up with long COVID | 20:17 |
twomoon | yes you are right ljl | 20:17 |
de-facto | mci64, are you serious? tell the the relatives of those that dies from your "pseudovirus" | 20:17 |
LjL | i don't know if they're serious, but they're muted. can't say they hadn't just been warned. | 20:18 |
IndoAnon | lick the toilet seat! lick the toilet seat! lick the toilet seat! | 20:18 |
LjL | no thanks | 20:18 |
de-facto | yeah probably just trolling anyhow, almost two years and they call it a pseudovirus, LOL | 20:19 |
IndoAnon | Haha, that's the joke. For iranian, it would be licking the grave's doors | 20:19 |
IndoAnon | I mean shrine/grave | 20:19 |
twomoon | try to think of how the vaccines put selective pressure on the virus | 20:20 |
twomoon | i think i am missing something | 20:20 |
de-facto | for the virus a fully vaccinated population looks like one that just recovered from a pure Wuhan-Hu-1 spike protein infection | 20:21 |
IndoAnon | Well, where ACE2 receptor is located | 20:21 |
IndoAnon | *consider where | 20:21 |
de-facto | so if it once found a way to circumvent and evade such immunity in one host, it probably can exploit the similarity in immunity after being transferred to the next host in such population, continuing with optimizing its fitness and evasion of that immunity | 20:23 |
de-facto | but we will see how much similarity the immunity in people got, e.g. if the selection pressure really goes into the same "direction" in a breakthrough infection chian | 20:25 |
de-facto | i think fully vaccinated really *must* avoid transferring breakthrough infections, otherwise their frequency will increase | 20:26 |
twomoon | ok you're not really making an educated guess about the direction | 20:26 |
IndoAnon | Hmm, time to check https://covid.viz.sg | 20:26 |
twomoon | your first paragraph just basically said "evolution is a random walk". | 20:26 |
IndoAnon | >No more live data from MOH>Unfortunately, because the Ministry of Health (MOH) Covid portal has stopped reporting detailed case notes since 29th June (Tuesday), this visualization cannot be updated. | 20:26 |
IndoAnon | Oh no no | 20:26 |
de-facto | no my point is if it found a way to circumvent vaccine immunity in one host, the probability of that way to work in the next host with immunity from same vaccine increases with similarity in vaccine induced immunity | 20:27 |
IndoAnon | imagine fungi that threatened cloned Cavendish | 20:30 |
twomoon | i guess i don't quite get it, de-facto | 20:31 |
IndoAnon | You don't get which part? If you want, I can answer in indo | 20:32 |
twomoon | nevermind, it sucks to be dumb | 20:33 |
de-facto | if you pick a lock of a door and found a way to get in, the probability to enter the next door depends on if the strategy you learned in picking the lock of the first door also works on the second door, hence on how similar the exploit of the second lock is compared to the first lock | 20:34 |
twomoon | i think i get it. he's saying the vaccine just makes it evolve "away from the vaccine" | 20:34 |
IndoAnon | Jadi, ketika seseorang yang sudah divaksin terinfeksi. Ada kemungkinan ia untuk menulari seseorang yang sudah divaksin juga | 20:34 |
twomoon | or "away from the antibodies produced in response to the vaccine" | 20:34 |
IndoAnon | karena imunitasnya mirip, maka kemungkinannya adalah Besar | 20:35 |
LjL | evolution *is* a random walk but then there are factors that terminate certain paths (unsuccessful mutations) and perpetuate others (successful ones) | 20:35 |
IndoAnon | >>334085496>[..]Lockdowns and isolation favour higher higher viral loads, which increase severity. Mobility for the vaxed means that while severity and mutation as a result of antibodies and other confounding variables for the virus to make entry to host cells certainly are in play, the severity gains from increased loads that are born of increased transmissibility requirements may decline. It ultimately depends on how long the vaxed are able to gain | 20:36 |
IndoAnon | and maintain freedom of movement, in terms of seeking the best possible outcome for coronachan. | 20:36 |
twomoon | that's a good analogy, de-facto | 20:36 |
LjL | vaccines can be one of those factors. natural immunity also. even social distancing and masks could be, unfortunately, a factor: virus variants with any mutations that promote more presence in aerosol may get an advantage | 20:36 |
twomoon | social-distancing-influenced evolution is hard to wrap my head around | 20:37 |
LjL | i don't know if it's actually been happening, but it's logically possible | 20:38 |
twomoon | i mean just wrapping my head around the logical possibility of it happening | 20:38 |
twomoon | i'm struggling to analyze the situation | 20:38 |
LjL | the virus keeps mutating in all sorts of way. a single person can have a large number of mutated virions. but if none of them have any special advantage, which type will go on to infect the next host is random/irrelevant | 20:39 |
de-facto | monocultures are more susceptible because a successful exploit can spread much more quickly, thats also the case with computer viruses btw | 20:40 |
LjL | add any "challenge" for the virus (like "you need to be able to infect people more than 2m away", although i don't personally think the virus never *couldn't* do that, but let's assume that), and some of those virions, in some of the many infected persons, will be able to win the challenge | 20:40 |
LjL | once they win that challenge, they have a clear advantage over other variants, and so the latter will likely wane and the former will become ubiquitous | 20:40 |
LjL | without the challenge, you'd still have the variants, but they wouldn't make much of a dent to the main variants already circulating | 20:41 |
LjL | they may also have drawbacks to their own survival/reproduction, so if they have no challenge to win, they may just go away | 20:41 |
de-facto | as long as contamination dose is not saturated in terms of causing infections it always will be an advantage for the virus to produce more contamination rates | 20:43 |
twomoon | winning the challenge = infecting another host? | 20:43 |
de-facto | example: if a mutation 1000-folds the viral load it only matters if that results in more infections, if it causes the exact same number of infections (saturated) it is not a selection | 20:43 |
de-facto | twomoon, exactly | 20:44 |
LjL | de-facto, unless it means killing hosts, or getting them to isolate, before the virus has a chance to infect other hosts. if you're just *filled* with virions so that your cells can't take it and you die too quickly, that won't be good for the virus, as it'll reproduce a lot in one host, but then won't move over to other hosts | 20:44 |
de-facto | yes i think in most situations the contamination dose is *not* saturated, e.g. a carrier does not infect 100% of its contacts | 20:45 |
de-facto | so as long as that is the case there will be a selection for higher viral loads | 20:45 |
de-facto | hence lockdowns with decreasing contact *rates* are decreasing incidence without breeding more aggressive strains (even preventing that by decreasing bruteforcing) | 20:46 |
LjL | but viral load can influence what a "contact" is | 20:47 |
LjL | low viral loads may mean that taking the elevator isn't a contact as long as i'm alone in the elevator | 20:47 |
LjL | higher viral loads may saturate the air enough that taking it hours after someone else did counts as a contact | 20:48 |
de-facto | if a contact does not take place the infection is impossible, if a contact takes place *and* contamination dose is not saturated (e.g. 100% transmissible) there *always* will be selection towards higher viral loads | 20:48 |
twomoon | example: if a mutation 1000-folds the viral load it only matters if that results in more infections, if it causes the exact same number of infections (saturated) it is not a selection | 20:49 |
twomoon | this is interesting de-facto , i hadn't considered that before | 20:49 |
LjL | well de-facto, when loosely enough defined, a contact can be just about anything - chances that i'll breathe in *one* virions from some random person, even if i'm tucked away inside my room most of the time, aren't low | 20:50 |
de-facto | but there are thresholds for infection, otherwise we all would have antibodies already | 20:51 |
twomoon | does the virus know that it has invaded another host when it finally does? | 20:52 |
de-facto | but yeah LjL your scenario is legit with the elevator being a contact without direct person-to-person contact if aerosol accumulation overcomes that threshold in the average duration of staying in that location | 20:52 |
LjL | twomoon, what do you mean by "know" | 20:53 |
LjL | as far as *i* know, the virus isn't conscious, whatever consciousness even is :P | 20:53 |
twomoon | i know it's not conscious. but i'm wondering if the virus has a way of reacting differently once it invaded a slightly different cell membrane relative to the one prior | 20:54 |
twomoon | once it has invaded | 20:54 |
de-facto | if it reacts differently then due to differences in the cell | 20:54 |
LjL | my guess would be no | 20:54 |
twomoon | bacteria aren't conscious either | 20:55 |
LjL | except yeah, due to differences in the cell, but not under virus control | 20:55 |
de-facto | the virus itself is just a metastable complex puzzle of molecules | 20:55 |
LjL | twomoon, bacteria can react to things though. viruses don't have sensory organs | 20:55 |
de-facto | bacteria can self-replicate without the help of a cell though | 20:55 |
twomoon | oh ok yeah bacteria have a rudimentary memory system | 20:55 |
LjL | there could be epigenetic phenomena with viruses, i guess i can't rule those out, but if they exist they're probably very difficult to identify | 20:56 |
de-facto | surely SARS-CoV-2 got some functionality in its RNA genome that was of advantage in the cells of its previous host that are just irrelevant in the human cell replication cycles because those mechanisms dont work in human cells | 20:57 |
twomoon | yeah there's really no way a virus can know it's infecting a new host unless viruses are more sophisticated than i realize | 20:57 |
de-facto | so those probably will not be conserved due to no selection pressure, and may even be randomly deleted without disadvantage for the pathogen replication cycle in human cells | 20:58 |
LjL | nixonnixoff | 21:00 |
de-facto | the selection pressure by uprising immune response should be a function of time, so arriving in a new host should begin a the start of that again | 21:01 |
LjL | de-facto, hence Alpha possibly having arisen in just one immunocompromised host, i guess | 21:01 |
de-facto | arriving in a new host would expose that pathogen to the earliest immune response parts again, because other parts of the reaction to its presence require some time to ramp up | 21:02 |
de-facto | and that very well may play a big role in terms of transmissibility, e.g. how fast it can replicate in the upper respiratory tract (nasal and pharyngeal cavities) | 21:03 |
de-facto | or how long it can fly under the radar of the immune system etc | 21:03 |
de-facto | LjL, yes if the immune response barely reaches neutralization, hence allows for many viral generations to mutate and select under partial neutralizing selection pressure (such as in immuno-compromised carriers) it will result in accumulation of more mutations compared to an average infection in a non-immuno-compromised host | 21:06 |
lastshell | no idea, why the media is not pushing eat more healthy and do exercise, most of the sick patients are obese | 21:23 |
specing | why don't we have taxes on unhealthy food | 21:23 |
FSRgoesbrr[m] | no way to say what is healthy or not | 21:24 |
FSRgoesbrr[m] | are vegans right? | 21:24 |
lastshell | no processed food == healthy | 21:24 |
FSRgoesbrr[m] | are pescaterians right? | 21:25 |
FSRgoesbrr[m] | who knows | 21:25 |
lastshell | keto, or meateaters I know there are many options | 21:25 |
lastshell | but most agree that processed food are bad | 21:25 |
lastshell | https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html | 21:28 |
twomoon | analyzing selective pressures is extremely hard heh | 21:29 |
twomoon | sources of selective pressure* | 21:29 |
de-facto | its the single most important factor in a pandemic though | 21:30 |
twomoon | it's a fascinating discussion but it requires a lot of intelligence | 21:30 |
de-facto | its a global longterm problem, hence we need to think globally in large timescales | 21:32 |
lastshell | people need to have healthy lifestyles that will stop a lot the spreed of this virus | 21:34 |
de-facto | it certainly can help with improving health and immune system capabilities | 21:35 |
lastshell | https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/does-exercise-help-protect-against-severe-covid-19-202106092475 | 21:35 |
LjL | there are taxes on foods with "too much" sugar added either in place or being discussed in various countries | 21:36 |
lastshell | yeah but bad food is damn cheap | 21:36 |
twomoon | what do you think about sugar taxes ? | 21:36 |
lastshell | sugar is poison | 21:36 |
twomoon | i think a sugar tax was tried in philadelphia here in the USA | 21:37 |
LjL | "sugar is poison" is the kind of extreme claim that i hope governments don't end up buying | 21:37 |
de-facto | it was really encouraging to see so many people running that looked really exhausted in early 2020 here in Germany | 21:37 |
de-facto | obviously they were new to sports and worked on improving their health | 21:37 |
twomoon | govs should avoid looking extreme and such statements make them look extreme | 21:37 |
lastshell | LjL it sounds extreme, but is not, if you study in deep what sugar does to your body you will be surprise | 21:38 |
lastshell | https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2009/06/104177/sugar-poison-says-ucsf-obesity-expert | 21:39 |
pwr22 | Everything is a poison in different quantities | 21:42 |
lastshell | that is totally correct ^ | 21:42 |
pwr22 | *sufficient | 21:42 |
pwr22 | We humans have efficient enzymes for breaking down starches into glucose so I'm not convinced that "sugar is a poison" is something I buy into | 21:44 |
pwr22 | Adding large amounts of it into stuff is certainly not super healthy though | 21:44 |
lastshell | correct, here in USA almost anything has sugar | 21:44 |
pwr22 | Especially in common with a lot of fats too like iced cream | 21:44 |
pwr22 | That combo doesn't seem to happen in nature in a 1:1 ratio much so kind of breaks feedback mechanisms we have to stop eating | 21:46 |
pwr22 | I personally think a sugar tax isn't a bad idea | 21:46 |
ublx | is it possible that we have such well crafted enzymes to cope with a historical energy scarcity that no longer exists for many of us? | 21:47 |
ublx | thusly pulling sugar dosing into a poison regime | 21:47 |
pwr22 | Depends how you see it / define it | 21:48 |
pwr22 | Mammals tend to live longer when calorie restricted | 21:48 |
pwr22 | Should we consider anyone not starving to be poisoned? | 21:49 |
* ublx hides all pwr22's cookies | 21:49 | |
pwr22 | Ha ha | 21:49 |
pwr22 | I'm actually on a diet ATM | 21:49 |
pwr22 | Lost about 4 kilos in the last 3 weeks | 21:49 |
pwr22 | I'm really hungry right this second but I'm not eating anymore today if I don't do don't exercise | 21:50 |
ublx | keto is good for never feeling hungry (ymmv, consult a doctor before yaddayadda..) | 21:51 |
LjL | death is good for never feeling hungry | 21:51 |
pwr22 | ublx: When people induce themselves into diabetes then I think that's a really good definition of chronic sugar poisoning 😅 | 21:51 |
pwr22 | I'm one of those always hungry people | 21:52 |
ublx | did you ever try eliminating starchy vegetables and refined carbohydrates from your diet though? | 21:52 |
pwr22 | But I've done alternate day fasting for many months before and sort of practiced mindful acceptance of the feeling so these days it's not a big deal | 21:53 |
pwr22 | Yeah, I've done that. My diet right now is pretty good though I can't say I really am interested in doing a proper keto sort of thing | 21:54 |
ublx | well proper <5% carbohydrates keto is pretty dang extreme tbf | 21:54 |
pwr22 | A bunch of what I'm eating right now is savoury huel and huel bars | 21:54 |
LjL | i'm probably tending towards the trends that give one diabetes currently. and yet, my belly was positive concave before i started taking certain medications. some people would point out that "with willpower" i could keep my belly concave or at least not strongly convex anyway, but does that remove any/all "blame" from those medications? | 21:55 |
pwr22 | Made my own paneer recently too | 21:55 |
LjL | what is the poison, the sugar (or whatever i overeat) or the chemicals that make me want to do so? | 21:55 |
pwr22 | Which I like to use in curries | 21:55 |
ublx | LjL: what if the chemical that makes you want sugar is sugar? | 21:56 |
de-facto | i wonder if diabetes rates will increase during the pandemic | 21:56 |
pwr22 | ublx in general I tend to avoid simple carbs, or other "empty calories" for exactly the reason you suggest it, they aren't very sustaining | 21:57 |
LjL | ublx, i think i'll leave it at "certain medications" | 21:57 |
de-facto | s-protein also attacks beta cells afaik | 21:57 |
pwr22 | LjL I'm pretty convex right now 😅 | 21:57 |
LjL | i'm tiny, but now convex too | 21:59 |
pwr22 | I do think we have constructed an environment where it is very easy for humans who aren't in poverty to become unhealthy and then live long unhealthy lives due to our food medicine | 21:59 |
pwr22 | Hopefully we can evolve to handle our post scarcity nutrition a little better | 22:00 |
LjL | yeah, one semi-recent survey in italy found that life expectancy was going up, but *healthy* life expectancy was going down | 22:00 |
LjL | (semi-recent because actually life expectancy has gone down more recently...) | 22:00 |
pwr22 | My weight last week was 213lbs which is down from 222 | 22:00 |
ublx | not going to whip out any papers right now but i'd expect (western style) poverty to correlate with obesity, owing to cheapness of (sugar and chemical laden) terrible fake foods | 22:01 |
pwr22 | My ideal target weight is 143lbs | 22:01 |
pwr22 | Lol | 22:01 |
pwr22 | Poverty was probably the wrong word ublx | 22:01 |
pwr22 | Lack of available foods night be a better one | 22:02 |
LjL | pwr22, 130lbs here but it's all relative. i used to be 95 and i wasn't anorexic or anything, even though some doctors sometimes suspected it | 22:02 |
twomoon | whoa 95 | 22:02 |
pwr22 | I don't mean poor Western people, I mean like people having to hunt or gather scare food so it's hard to even have enough to over eat | 22:03 |
pwr22 | Which is what we're evolved for | 22:03 |
LjL | also, before i leave to have dinner including some binging on sweets, a reminder that channel regulars may want to have a look at the topic | 22:04 |
* ublx hides all LjL's sweets | 22:04 | |
ublx | does the topic say anything about hiding sweets? | 22:04 |
pwr22 | I was around 100 or so when I lost a lot of weight as a young adult but I lost all my muscle sir to unhealthy dieting | 22:04 |
pwr22 | I was eating like 400 calories a day and walking like 12 miles a day | 22:05 |
pwr22 | I would say I probably fit the definition of an eating disorder at the time | 22:05 |
lastshell | im 198 i was 260lb last year | 22:06 |
pwr22 | Then I realised one day I couldn't see how I actually looked and actually saw myself as I was. So I got into building up muscle and for a lot better but heavier | 22:06 |
pwr22 | lastshell nice work! | 22:06 |
lastshell | slowly recovering strength | 22:07 |
lastshell | spine issues last year | 22:07 |
pwr22 | %addpoint covidnews | 22:07 |
Brainstorm | covidnews: +2/-0, 2 | 22:07 |
lastshell | pwr22 what kind of exercise or workouts you doing ? | 22:08 |
pwr22 | Playing physical games on my Oculus quest ATM, some walking and a little cycling here and there | 22:09 |
lastshell | I got a fitbit last year that help me a lot | 22:09 |
pwr22 | ATM I'm finding lower impact more fun stuff like the vr the easiest to keep up ATM | 22:09 |
pwr22 | As I get a bit more in shape I'll probably transition back to a bunch of cycling every week and some strength stuff too | 22:10 |
de-facto | im 6'4" and 190-200lbs hence BMI ~ 23-24 | 22:10 |
de-facto | i think i should loose some weight by doing more sports | 22:10 |
pwr22 | Already feeling a lot healthier than I did a few weeks ago | 22:10 |
lastshell | nice | 22:10 |
pwr22 | lastshell: Cool, I have a Garmin watch I'll dust out at some point too | 22:11 |
de-facto | actually i gained quite some weight by quitting smoking in early 2020 | 22:11 |
pwr22 | *dust off | 22:11 |
pwr22 | de-facto that's interesting. It's an appetite suppressant right? | 22:12 |
de-facto | i am not sure about the mechanism, maybe also influences metabolism somehow? | 22:12 |
lastshell | de-facto im 5'11 198lb i think my bmi says im overweight but inhave big bones | 22:12 |
de-facto | it probably changes a lot of things | 22:12 |
lastshell | most smokers skip meals | 22:14 |
de-facto | i dont think i eat more, i even eat less i think | 22:14 |
de-facto | sometimes i only eat one or two slice of bread per day | 22:15 |
de-facto | anyhow i think increasing metabolism would be a good thing, hence doing sports etc | 22:16 |
de-facto | healthy and diverse diet, moderate regular sports, regular uninterrupted sleep, that would be the ideal i guess | 22:17 |
vaxonvaxoff | jesus christ dudes, you know what day it is? | 22:18 |
de-facto | yeah the lucky one | 22:18 |
vaxonvaxoff | lets pray. or if youre not religious, watch a movie | 22:18 |
vaxonvaxoff | there was some interesting discussion above, give me a moment, gotta read | 22:18 |
ublx | %addpoint covidnews | 22:19 |
Brainstorm | covidnews: +3/-0, 3 | 22:19 |
vaxonvaxoff | there was couple of new nucleocapsid mutations in 1.1.7 causing new subgenomic rna synthesis, and increasing production of some accessory proteins | 22:27 |
vaxonvaxoff | and other mutations for other accessory and nonstructural proteins, several of them inhibiting ifn-I or mitochondrial signalling, suppressing innate immune response | 22:29 |
vaxonvaxoff | those are thought to affect at least upper respiratory epithelial cells, not sure of other type of cells are confirmed | 22:29 |
vaxonvaxoff | also strange mechanism for one of those proteins seems to be switch of by the hosts own cellular regulating due to phosphorylation of that protein, that they hypothicized was evolved with other previous coronaviruses | 22:31 |
vaxonvaxoff | so that early in infection the innate response is more suppressed, and then later when its switched off, there will be more inflammation and more severe symptoms | 22:32 |
vaxonvaxoff | but i really havent read much about this delta variant yet, and idk if the increased transmission is due to similar immune suppression mechanisms (which it apparently doesnt have as many), or eg the mutation promoting syncytia | 22:33 |
vaxonvaxoff | cell fusion | 22:33 |
vaxonvaxoff | some of you guys have read about delta and innate response suppression? link me to some paper if handy | 22:34 |
vaxonvaxoff | lot of those above have come quite late, so its possible that the understading of 617.2 is behind | 22:34 |
nixonix | i told you, friday the 12+1 | 22:50 |
LjL | friday 13 doesn't bother me, i'm not superstitious. it's just friday 17 that's dangerous. | 22:50 |
nixonix | dont use it. i know about italians and that silly 17, but whats behind that, why 17? | 22:51 |
LjL | why 13? | 22:51 |
nixonix | its been that since the beginning of times | 22:52 |
LjL | suuuure | 22:52 |
nixonix | cosmological constant probably | 22:52 |
nixonix | what was the last line i typed, that came through? | 22:53 |
nixonix | damn dudes, my words are important. i want to know what dissapeared in bit heaven, and what did not. ill repaste those that you didnt get | 22:56 |
LjL | <vaxonvaxoff> lot of those above have come quite late, so its possible that the understading of 617.2 is behind | 22:57 |
nixonix | ah thanks. but i didnt see all those comments, would you guys repaste them? | 22:57 |
nixonix | do i live in fast motion, or other world in slow motion? | 22:58 |
LjL | ok | 22:58 |
LjL | done | 22:58 |
nixonix | damn server missed them again | 22:58 |
LjL | i don't know, maybe you take too much theanine | 22:58 |
nixonix | anything new, i havent followed in couple days | 23:00 |
LjL | i just don't know anything about the things you were talking about | 23:00 |
LjL | hmm | 23:00 |
LjL | dunno, there is this meta analysis that i didn't want to read 'cause scary https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95565-8 | 23:02 |
nixonix | i could check a few twitter accounts, but guys like those erics and couple others tweet sooo much, it will take time. somebody should do summaries of their interesting tweets | 23:02 |
LjL | tweets are already short summaries of stuff | 23:03 |
LjL | or at least were meant to be. now they do twitter "threads" which thwart it all... | 23:03 |
nixonix | actually thats interesting, ive been involved lately in arguing with some antivaxers, so have to collect some stuff about childrens lc, organ and brain damage and stuff, whats known about them | 23:04 |
LjL | https://www.zotero.org/groups/4391070/covid_links/tags/Brain/library | 23:05 |
nixonix | and those that arent easily diagnosed, including telomeres, if theres something new, both adults and adolescents. older links are fine too, i have to collect some material | 23:05 |
LjL | https://www.zotero.org/groups/4391070/covid_links/tags/Children/library (not much here) | 23:05 |
nixonix | thanks. its time to check your links again (i have checked it sometimes while i was awol, that web page) | 23:05 |
nixonix | owid doesnt have usa for administered vaxes by brand, but i found some links, lemme see | 23:06 |
LjL | the "Long COVID" tag will also have some things about organ damage i guess | 23:07 |
LjL | i may need to add the telomere things | 23:07 |
nixonix | .title https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html | 23:07 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.nytimes.com: Covid-19 Vaccinations: County and State Tracker - The New York Times | 23:07 |
nixonix | .title https://data.cdc.gov/Vaccinations/COVID-19-Vaccination-and-Case-Trends-by-Age-Group-/gxj9-t96f | 23:08 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From data.cdc.gov: COVID-19 Vaccination and Case Trends by Age Group, United States | Data | Centers for Disease Control and Prevention | 23:08 |
nixonix | different collection than specops? | 23:11 |
LjL | yes | 23:11 |
LjL | Zotero lets me add and tag more papers more quickly | 23:12 |
LjL | drawbacks are that it doesn't always like regular web pages, it's really meant for things with a DOI | 23:12 |
LjL | also some people didn't like seeing too much stuff being tagged and posted here, so it's posted in ##covid-ticker now, which may change again depending on /topic | 23:12 |
nixonix | not sure if this has been here, but has some of stuff i wrote about: | 23:13 |
nixonix | .title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.06.446826v1.full | 23:13 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.biorxiv.org: Evolution of enhanced innate immune evasion by the SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 UK variant | bioRxiv | 23:13 |
LjL | i added it under the "Delta" and "Immunity" tags. see, it's magic, i can add stuff without even understanding it enough to write a summary like on github | 23:15 |
lastshell | does anybody has similt story but no paywall https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/climate/wildfires-smoke-covid.html | 23:18 |
nixonix | .title https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1648 | 23:19 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.bmj.com: Long covid—mechanisms, risk factors, and management | The BMJ | 23:19 |
LjL | lastshell, you can read the paper itself at https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/33/eabi8789 | 23:19 |
LjL | lastshell, i also have this paper https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0013935120306472 which shows the virus itself can possibly "travel" over small particulate | 23:20 |
nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/RadCentrism/status/1422259585193181187 | 23:21 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Radical Centrist, wrathful tantric deity (@RadCentrism): "🚨Below is the best way I can think to explain Covid (which attacks epithelial tissue, expressing "ACE2"): If your BODY = a CITY, then COVID = [...] | 23:21 |
nixonix | wheres that pic from? i think it isnt from that bmj paper | 23:21 |
nixonix | .title https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/climate/wildfires-smoke-covid.html archive link to behind paywall: https://archive.is/wVtdm | 23:23 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.nytimes.com: In the West, a Connection Between Covid and Wildfires - The New York Times | 23:23 |
nixonix | .title https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/3/e048391 from the last year | 23:26 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From bmjopen.bmj.com: Multiorgan impairment in low-risk individuals with post-COVID-19 syndrome: a prospective, community-based study | BMJ Open | 23:26 |
nixonix | Conclusions In individuals at low risk of COVID-19 mortality with ongoing symptoms, 70% have impairment in one or more organs 4 months after initial COVID-19 symptoms, with implications for healthcare and public health, which have assumed low risk in young people with no comorbidities | 23:27 |
LjL | nixonix, is it so old it didn't have loss of smell/taste on the radar | 23:27 |
nixonix | .title https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/706544 | 23:34 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.eurekalert.org: The Lancet: One in two hospitalized COVID-19 | EurekAlert! | 23:34 |
nixonix | .title https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00799-6/fulltext | 23:34 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.thelancet.com: Characterisation of in-hospital complications associated with COVID-19 using the ISARIC WHO Clinical Characterisation Protocol UK: a prospective, multicentre cohort study - The Lancet | 23:34 |
nixonix | pretty cursory, that nature paper above. more links on possible permanent damages? | 23:39 |
nixonix | .title https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210722/SARS-CoV-2-reprograms-host-chromatic-network-to-induce-immune-dysfunction.aspx anyone familiar with the subject? give some kind of intro | 23:48 |
Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.news-medical.net: SARS-CoV-2 reprograms host chromatic network to induce immune dysfunction | 23:48 |
LjL | %papers "multiorgan damage" | 23:54 |
Brainstorm | LjL, 10 results out of 29: Risk factors for mortality among patients with SARS-CoV-2 infection: A longitudinal observational study by Nouf K Almaghlouth et al, dated 2020-09-29 → https://www.doi.org/10.1002/jmv.26560 [... want %more?] | 23:54 |
LjL | %more | 23:54 |
Brainstorm | LjL, [...] MULTIORGAN DAMAGE IN PATIENTS WITH COVID-19: IS THE TGF-β /BMP PATHWAY THE MISSING LINK? by F Roy Carlson et al, dated 2020-09-29 → https://www.doi.org/10.1016/j.jacbts.2020.09.003 — The beneficial and pathogenic roles of complement in COVID-19 by Alfred H J Kim et al, dated 2020-10-30 → https://www.doi.org/10.3949/ccjm.87a.ccc065 [...] → https://paste.ee/p/A8Dzq | 23:54 |
nixonix | i really recommend that innate immune paper above. some of it is a bit hard to understand prob, but just skip over those parts, or ask me (if i understand those particular parts) | 23:55 |
Jbwncster | Hi | 23:57 |
LjL | hi | 23:58 |
Jbwncster | My county has a mask mandate and 3 towns are refusing to do it | 23:59 |
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