libera/#devuan-dev/ Thursday, 2018-09-06

golinuxNot much00:00
golinuxAh, the joys of parenting . . . not.00:02
rrq.. the first 35 years are the worst..00:12
KatolaZI guess the first 35 are the best00:13
KatolaZI can tell the first 5/6 are great for sure ;)00:14
KatolaZwe'll see what comes next00:14
rrqmmm there is that period between 7 and 12 when they've started talking like people but not like teenagers :)00:15
golinuxHere's the solution for all the misery.  vhemt.org00:15
rrqmmm that doesn't solve it; it's just an attempt to avoid the problem...00:16
golinuxAnd save the biosphere at the same time.00:16
rrqlike avoiding fruit flies by not growing fruit00:16
rrqavoiding methan gas by not farming cattle00:17
* golinux needs to think about that one. Neither fruit nor flies are fouling this planet.00:17
rrqavoiding sun light by not rotating the planet00:18
rrqwell half right00:18
golinuxAnimal waste lays waste to estuaries and needs to go.00:18
golinuxThe process that creates it needs to go that is.00:19
rrqcan't you just plug them at the business end?00:19
golinuxThey'd explode.00:19
rrq:) .. need to work..00:19
golinuxMy spamers notes are a bit confusing.  Trying to sort things00:20
golinuxYou'll have it in a bit.00:20
drwhiteHi folks. Just a quick one... is Devuan going SystemD?03:44
drwhiteI'm looking at using Devuan for everything because Devuan Jessie doesn't use SystemD, but I found an article relating to ASCII that says.. And I quote.... " For ASCII Devuan has given up on removing libsystemd0 dependencies from Debian packages (they started removing that for Jessie and are rolling back on that now). They also recently added a logind-clone, and can now ship Debian packages that depend on systemd-logind unchanged."03:46
fsmithredno, we're not going to systemd04:06
drwhiteWill there be software specific to devuan?04:09
drwhiteas the developers, ais that one thing that is being worked on?04:09
fsmithrednot sure what you're asking04:10
fsmithredif you mean packages in devuan repo that aren't in debian, then yes, there already are a few04:10
drwhiteI mean like takign away software like the slow and clunky stuff that is installed and replacing it with faster more streamlined software that is created.04:11
fsmithredwell, we sort of took away gnome, which is about the slowest and clunkiest thing I've ever seen04:13
fsmithredbut we're not taking away firefox, which is also slow and clunky04:13
drwhiteyes, Gnome3 is horrific. MATE is Gnome 2, and Gnome 2 was quite good.04:14
fsmithredI'm too impatient for even mate04:14
drwhiteFireFox 24 ESR was fast and stable04:14
drwhiteBut after 24, they just started destroying Firefox...04:14
drwhitelol, I use xFCE myself.04:15
fsmithredseriously, I think they deliberately slowed it down in the past year04:15
drwhiteBut that's on my developer machine.04:15
fsmithredjust so when they came out with the newest versions, they'd seem fast04:15
drwhiteActually, all their call home stuff is what slows it down04:15
drwhiteThey have all their telemetry and accounts and stats and more... And it all reports back... so it slows everything down.04:15
fsmithredand they got rid of that stuff in the latest versions?>04:16
drwhiteWould Devuan be interested in an FF drop in replacement that is faster?04:16
drwhiteno, they have not got rid of it, that's what they added in after version 24 ESR04:16
fsmithredthe subject of a replacement for ff comes up often04:16
drwhiteas well as the choice to update the browser or not, they just force you to update04:16
fsmithredso far, there is nothing that quite does it04:17
fsmithredwell, 57 and newer are a lot faster than 5204:17
drwhiteWell, there isn't YET, because I have not spent enough time building it yet. It's not even close to being ready for anyone to see.04:17
drwhiteand yet 61 is slow as a wet week04:17
fsmithredreally? I don't think I tried that one. I thought all the newer ones were faster.04:18
fsmithredfaster than the current slowed-down versions, but not faster than the old versions04:18
drwhiteif you compare it all to 24 ESR, they are all slow04:18
drwhiteBut then again, I'm very very very picky04:19
drwhiteI manage to speed up all versions after 24ESR by having it all virtualised and forbidding it to talk to Mozilla servers.04:19
drwhiteThat at least sped it up.04:19
drwhiteIt also prevents the automatic update04:20
drwhiteYou know, out on the road on a mobile phone connection.... FF updates... There goes 80 MB of data...04:21
fsmithredfeel free to write a howto04:21
fsmithredI'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it04:21
drwhiteNot to mention the bandwidth consumption to slow everything down.04:21
drwhiteThere are howtos out there.04:21
drwhiteIf they had a versoin of FF without the Accounts and telemetry and all the spyware crap like Windows 10 has, then it would be fast04:21
drwhiteSo I'm using different versions of things to build a browser that can handle everything.04:22
drwhiteBut I'm not using Python and such...04:23
drwhiteWould it have to be open source?04:23
drwhiteOr can it be closed source at first with disclaimer and all notifying of what it does and all?04:23
fsmithredI think we just mirror debian's non-free repos. We don't have one of those of our own.04:24
drwhiteI'd just like to use Devuan as the proving area for it, to make it work without SystemD and more.04:24
drwhiteIt wouldn't be in the repos04:24
drwhiteYou do have some repos04:24
fsmithredyes, for the packages we fork from debian to remove systemd deps04:25
drwhiteBut I mean if I want to target Devuan specifically.04:25
fsmithredyou can make whatever you want, host it, and tell people about it04:25
drwhiteOr even to give devuan the upper hand of a browser that isn't bad04:25
drwhiteokay, I can do that easily enough.04:25
fsmithredand I'm sure people will try it04:25
drwhiteDo people like Open Source better than closed source?04:26
fsmithredum, yeah. Are you new to linux?04:26
drwhiteNo, not new to linux.04:26
drwhiteI have been using Linux distributions since mid 90s04:27
drwhiteStarted on RedHat and CentOS.04:27
fsmithredand hanging around the online linux community?04:27
drwhiteI have hung around the community, until they started the SystemD craze04:27
fsmithredthere are people who make a distinction between open-source and free (libre) software04:28
drwhiteBut most people disagreed with my views of SystemD.04:28
fsmithredopen-source is more corporate sponsored stuff.04:28
drwhiteYes there are.04:28
fsmithredvendor lock-in is not off the table in that arena04:28
drwhiteOpen source is also easier for hackers and crackers to find the vulnerabilities.04:29
fsmithredwell, libre software also has source available, necessarily04:29
fsmithredyou can be free if the software is hiding how it works04:29
fsmithredcan't be free04:29
drwhiteBut if it is closed source, AND FREE?04:30
drwhitenot true04:30
fsmithredhow is it free?04:30
drwhiteno cost04:30
fsmithredam I free to alter closed-source04:31
fsmithrednot free of cost04:31
fsmithredthat's kind of irrelevant to freedom04:31
drwhitefreedom of choice, freedom of request.04:31
drwhiteas I said earlier, at first during initial times, it would be closed source04:31
golinuxWe will not support closed source04:32
fsmithredI know a lot of people who would absolutely not be interested in it for that reason04:32
drwhiteso I would have to let hackers see the code so they can infect systems?04:32
golinuxExactly.  drwhite you will get no traction for that here.04:32
fsmithredthat really isn't much of a problem04:33
fsmithredopen-source stuff generally gets patched within days of a vulnerability being found04:33
drwhiteI'm not willing to go open source until it is secure and tested and I have not got debug code in it.04:33
fsmithredunlike the dominant player in the market04:33
golinuxdrwhite has imbibed of the koolaide04:33
drwhiteopen source means that people can see the source, and change things and compile and make their own versions.04:34
fsmithredyes, that's what the free software movement is all about04:35
drwhiteSo that means that what I build would go nowhere fast, even during alpha and beta stages, correct?04:35
golinuxYup.  They can make it better if they have an interest.04:35
golinuxNot if it's closed source.04:35
drwhiteWell, I'll jsut have to see what happens then?04:35
fsmithredsorry, I don't understand that last statement04:35
drwhiteWhat is it you do not understand?04:36
fsmithredabout stuff going nowhere fast04:36
golinuxYour lack of understanding and appreciation of what libre software is about.04:36
drwhiteI understand what Libre and open source is all about.04:37
drwhiteMaybe you are not understanding me because I am probably not explaining it all well enough.04:37
golinuxIt like being a bit pregnant/.  Wither it is libre or it isn't04:37
fsmithredsystemd is a shotgun wedding04:38
fsmithredbb in a few minutes04:39
drwhitewell, as I had said, AT THE START it would be closed source. But as per your reactions I can see that I would have to test it all myself before I do anything further to make it open source.04:40
drwhiteWill Devuan ever be able to run on ARM devices?04:50
fsmithredor hire someone to test it04:57
fsmithredmore eyes=better04:57
fsmithredyou having trouble with the arm images?04:58
fsmithredbed time for me. good luck with it. browsers are not easy.05:07
drwhiteI mean for installing it.05:07
drwhiteI want to install, to have my own partitioning.05:08
drwhitenot an image to put on an SD and just have the SD as the drive05:08
drwhiteSorry, should have been more explicit05:08
drwhiteTo be more accurate, I'm installing onto a device and I have X amount of space available, but I need the primary partitions for the bootloader that I use to instanciate the hardware.05:11
drwhitegolinux: Are they the installers or the actual SD card images to put on? i.e. Is it booting to an install iso?05:19
golinuxI have no idea.05:20
drwhitetypically, with those images, from what I have seen of them for those devices, they are already built and ready to image onto an SD Card and then insert and it runs.05:21
golinuxI have towers with spinning disks.05:21

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