| houkime | found makerdon.org | 00:34 |
|---|---|---|
| houkime | ook. It will be a bit hard to build some community without google but this is what i want to pursue | 01:19 |
| houkime | unfortunately peertube doesn't support streams yet because obviously this is a lot of pressure on any instance | 01:21 |
| houkime | however it might be possible to have at least unrecorded streams this way | 01:22 |
| chomwitt | hi. | 01:34 |
| houkime | hi | 01:35 |
| houkime | i currently have some minor problems with pelican not finding css. then i will try to make stuff more interconnected | 01:37 |
| houkime | At least there's a missing link to the www repo in resources. Also i want to have links to issue tracker and planning and whatever. | 01:39 |
| houkime | and in general make site easier for potential contributors seeking to help out with neo900 | 01:40 |
| houkime | chomwitt: if you want something to be made, please consider opening issues and/or make prs to the planning repo. | 01:42 |
| houkime | so that there's something condensed to discuss. Also PR mechanics allows you to actually make changes you want and present them | 01:45 |
| houkime | I probably perceived the general idea of what you want but now it is time to discuss actual implementations and goals. | 01:47 |
| houkime | I will also open issues for stuff to keep everything organised | 01:49 |
| houkime | organization is what i lacked recently | 01:50 |
| houkime | *issues myself | 01:54 |
| chomwitt | i dont understand. are u willing to put efford when u dont even know if it can be built? there could be pieces that cant be found in the market. u still think it just a 'manpower' issue? | 02:21 |
| houkime | what can't be built? | 02:22 |
| chomwitt | neo900 | 02:23 |
| houkime | oh, you're about cases? | 02:23 |
| chomwitt | no | 02:25 |
| chomwitt | i mean the motherboard | 02:25 |
| houkime | motherboard we are producing and designing | 02:25 |
| chomwitt | but , also at least the screen | 02:26 |
| chomwitt | :-) | 02:26 |
| chomwitt | what do u mean 'we are producing' ? | 02:26 |
| houkime | sorry, english and tenses. Currently designing. Will produce. | 02:27 |
| houkime | I'm actually worried a bit now joerg-Neo900 not responding anything about n900 count | 02:29 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | hm? | 02:30 |
| chomwitt | hi | 02:30 |
| houkime | joerg-neo900: how many N900's are currently in stash? | 02:31 |
| chomwitt | i'm asking the project still 'doable' in the hardware-sourcing the components sense yet? | 02:31 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | houkime: slightly over 200. Enough for the ciustomers who preordered a complete device, not enough for the number of units we need to produce and sell ro reach break-even exonomically | 02:33 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | eco* | 02:33 |
| chomwitt | but those are the cases with screens and keyboards. what about the components to build 200 motherboards? | 02:34 |
| houkime | they are full n900s | 02:35 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | we have ~200 preorders for complete devices (and sufficent N900 for that), and we have ~150 preorders for NeoN bareboard/kit. We need a total of 600+ unit sales/preorders (Neo900 / NeoN) to make production feasible | 02:35 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | alas it gets increasingly more difficult to source more N900 even if we can generate more preorders | 02:37 |
| houkime | chomwitt: motherboards themselves are modern with modern components from digikey. old are only cameras and battery gauges | 02:37 |
| chomwitt | houkime: i got that, but the motherboards of the n900s arent's useless? | 02:38 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | 200 nice little beagleboard-alike SBCs | 02:38 |
| Oksana | To generate more pre-orders for motherboards (not complete devices), emphasis should be on "you can take your old dusty N900 with not-working-motherboard and breathe new life into it with NeoN bareboard/kit" | 02:39 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | >>old are only cameras and battery gauges<< HM? how are battery gauges old""? | 02:39 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | Oksana: yep | 02:40 |
| Oksana | As in, new NeoN bareboard still needs "old" camera module from Nokia N900? | 02:40 |
| Oksana | Unless compatible camera modules are available en masse on digikey or something | 02:40 |
| chomwitt | Joerg-Neo900: the '200 beagleboard-alike SBS' have been bought? and do they have on them the cpu , mem etc i read in the neo900 specs? | 02:41 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | Oksana: yes, we plan to osurce N97(?) camera modules | 02:41 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | source* | 02:41 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | chomwitt: hmm? please rephrase | 02:42 |
| Oksana | What are the dimensions of NeoN bareboard/kit? /Just wondering if it could be compatible with some other phone case, besides Nokia N900 - highly unlikely though, given the hardware keyboard/ | 02:42 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | pknevermind | 02:42 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | never mind | 02:42 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | Oksana: ^^^ | 02:43 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | chomwitt: I susp4ect some misconception regarding Neo900, N900, old and new PCBs | 02:44 |
| houkime | joerg-neo900: there are two gauges and one is old for compatibility reasons. it is not sourced though probably just antique. BQ27200DRK | 02:45 |
| houkime | is officially marked as not for new designs | 02:45 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | ? | 02:45 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | so? | 02:45 |
| houkime | joerg-neo900:Nothing really. You were just asking about how gauges are old. One of them is. | 02:46 |
| houkime | Oksana: sec, looking up dimensions | 02:49 |
| Oksana | How are there two battery gauges?.. And looking currently at http://neo900.org/stuff/werner/stacking/ , fascinating | 02:50 |
| houkime | x - 105.75 y 56.4 and some z you can look up in stacking | 02:50 |
| chomwitt | arent beableboard used only for a v2 prototype? i thougth that in the finally neo900 a new motherboard would have to be designed | 02:51 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | define: 'old' | 02:51 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | chomwitt: you asked >><chomwitt> houkime: i got that, but the motherboards of the n900s arent's useless?<<, I gathered you're talking about the original N900 PCB that came with the 200 N900 we sourced. They are "useless" except when you use them as beagleboard-alike SingleBoardComputers | 02:54 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | we use a BB-xM as "brainboard" for proto_v2, we sourced 10 of them | 02:55 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | sorry, afk, Be back tomorrow | 02:56 |
| chomwitt | Joerg-Neo900: i was wondering more generally if the components of the final neo900 can be found | 02:57 |
| chomwitt | lets say in 2 years from now | 02:57 |
| houkime | joerg-neo900: bye. thx for info | 02:57 |
| chomwitt | ? | 02:58 |
| houkime | chomwitt: there is nothing really fast-expiring inside the board itself board maybe besides this one gauge. | 02:59 |
| houkime | at least nothing that can't be corrected with relative ease | 02:59 |
| chomwitt | houkime: i'm not a hardware expert by far ,thats why i ask | 03:00 |
| chomwitt | so lets say in 2 years from now if v2 goes ok , it could be found 300 omap TI DM3730 | 03:00 |
| * Oksana thinks that manufacturing another wave of identical Neo900 devices will probably be impossible in 10 years? Because OMAP3 CPU sounds old | 03:00 | |
| chomwitt | Oksana: what do y mean another? we'r talking about the first wave i think :-) | 03:01 |
| chomwitt | sorry, 350 TI DM3730 (200 + 150 bareboards) | 03:02 |
| houkime | I wouldn't make neo900s in 10 years from now even if they happen to be super popular. Conversion phones in general produce too many troubles in development i think | 03:02 |
| houkime | like... far too many | 03:03 |
| chomwitt | conversion phones? | 03:03 |
| Oksana | First wave will be alright, afaik. And 1000 would be needed, minimum. | 03:03 |
| Oksana | Conversion from Nokia N900 to NeoN900 | 03:03 |
| houkime | like right now compatibility with old soft and case makes many things much more complicated than they should be | 03:04 |
| chomwitt | well the project is without sufficient manpower to even pull v2 , its 650 unit behind economical feasability if i can recap .. | 03:05 |
| houkime | like, i wouldn't spend a month trying to solve bob problems if i could just modify case. | 03:05 |
| houkime | and yes there are two gauges one of which is old and 5 times bigger by area then another | 03:06 |
| houkime | for compatibility | 03:06 |
| chomwitt | sorry , 250 units behind economic viabity | 03:07 |
| Oksana | chomwitt : I pre-ordered 7 complete devices. And that's while being a student - not a billionaire. Granted, I am an electronics magpie... | 03:08 |
| Oksana | houkime : If you could modify the case, you would spend a month modifying the case, and you would have to speak with Greece (or somebody) like Pyra does, looking at prototypes of the case. | 03:10 |
| Oksana | Interesting, but implies lots of arguments on forums about "What should the case be like?" | 03:11 |
| chomwitt | Oksana: i pre-ordered one | 03:11 |
| Oksana | Nice :-) Thank you :-) I wish I could support somehow else, besides pre-orders, but no idea how | 03:13 |
| houkime | Support that is really needed now is not about money. Like, joerg actually has the money to hire layouter and whatnot | 03:14 |
| houkime | the problem is layouters bail out | 03:15 |
| houkime | and kicad layouters esp working on linux are rare | 03:15 |
| * Oksana has never seen kicad or anything before - and that's besides the layouting probably requiring lots of time | 03:16 | |
| * Oksana could try to install kicad on my Linux laptop - which I switch on about once a week, using N900 most of the time instead of laptop - since I don't think KiCad runs well (if at all) on N900 | 03:16 | |
| * Oksana corrects myself - 6 device pre-orders and one voucher, actually | 03:18 | |
| chomwitt | Oksana: is neo900 based on GTA04 ? | 03:18 |
| houkime | Oksana: you can totally try | 03:18 |
| houkime | Oksana: there will be no har anyway | 03:19 |
| houkime | *no harm | 03:19 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | houkime: please! what makes you think >>joerg actually has the money to hire layouter<< ? | 03:19 |
| houkime | Joerg-neo900: because you have already tried to contract them? Did interviews and whatnot? | 03:20 |
| houkime | that's how metacollin ended up involved, no? | 03:21 |
| Oksana | chomwitt : Yes, to a large extent. | 03:21 |
| chomwitt | strangely goldendelicious has none stock at the moment | 03:22 |
| chomwitt | is gta04 abandoned? | 03:22 |
| Oksana | They tried to make a newer version, see #gta04 But it didn't work out, for now, I think | 03:23 |
| houkime | chomwitt: they are still working on it probably. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSbuXz_EZTo | 03:24 |
| chomwitt | Oksana: the issues gta04 had are related to neo900 ? | 03:30 |
| chomwitt | i mean neo900 will be affected by the issues gta04 had on their latest version? | 03:31 |
| houkime | hard and interesting question. Think it needs investigation | 03:31 |
| chomwitt | digikey says it has 921 available DM3730 at 800MHz .. i was curious if the processor is still available. | 03:37 |
| chomwitt | http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/gta04-owner/2017-February/007259.html | 03:41 |
| chomwitt | i think i found the issue with GTA04A5 , there was an issue with the soldering of the omap processor | 03:42 |
| chomwitt | they got a yield <33% | 03:42 |
| chomwitt | a! it mentions neo900.. :-/ | 03:43 |
| houkime | yep that's pretty bad | 03:44 |
| houkime | "unsolderable chips" | 03:45 |
| Oksana | RAM/NAND PoP | 03:46 |
| Oksana | chip | 03:46 |
| Oksana | Which RAM/NAND PoP chip did they have? | 03:46 |
| Oksana | Going by old conversations, "soldering is simply a matter of doing more tests so no issue afaik", "for Neo900 there's no such thing like a 'PoP/RAM soldering issue' yet" | 04:00 |
| houkime | memory seems to be MT29C8G96MAZBADJV-5 | 04:04 |
| houkime | https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/micron-technology-inc/MT29C8G96MAZBADJV-5-WT/MT29C8G96MAZBADJV-5WT-ND/4315652 | 04:04 |
| houkime | based on https://www.electronicsdatasheets.com/manufacturers/golden-delicious-computers/parts/gta04a5 | 04:04 |
| Oksana | >> the 'problem' definitely can get soved by tuning the parameters of soldering, the methods etc, it just needs the resources << | 04:05 |
| chomwitt | Oksana: Schaller seem rather pesimmistic though after reading the whole email.. | 04:07 |
| Oksana | Speaking of pessimistic... https://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900/2017-03-20 | 04:07 |
| chomwitt | 'So the best for Neo900 would be to change the CPU/RAM chip' | 04:07 |
| houkime | it is actually a bit strange that problem is so severe given that omap-3 has some successful products with it inside | 04:09 |
| houkime | like, is it ok for mass producers to have 33 percent yield and be profitable? | 04:10 |
| houkime | probably one needsto talk with omap guys themselves? | 04:11 |
| chomwitt | well, i dont have the knowledge to say sth in the technicals ,but it seems that finding another company to do the soldering maybe could help? | 04:12 |
| houkime | It might help, and might not help. Nobody knows at this point aside of those who actually had success. | 04:13 |
| houkime | that's why i think one needs to investigate the factories that actually successfully soldered this stuff | 04:14 |
| houkime | and maybe use them | 04:14 |
| houkime | because there are such factories obviously | 04:15 |
| chomwitt | so that's an open issue of investigation. find successfull products with high yield with OMAP3 | 04:15 |
| Oksana | houkime : The only other device with OMAP3 and 1GB RAM is Nokia N9, apparently? | 04:15 |
| houkime | Oksana: There was a short under the cpu which means that cpu itself is already a problem. Nokia wasn't the only ones using omap3 i believe | 04:17 |
| houkime | soldering problems are also not dependent on silicon itself - they are about a package | 04:19 |
| Oksana | It's CPU which gets warped because of temperatures, apparently https://image.slidesharecdn.com/0324c436-3f58-425c-a17e-26af383680ca-161026182401/95/determination-of-solder-paste-inspection-tolerance-limits-for-fine-pitch-packages-66-638.jpg?cb=1477506275 | 04:19 |
| Oksana | But NAND/RAM influences overall configuration, possibly? | 04:20 |
| Oksana | See https://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900/2017-03-01 | 04:20 |
| Oksana | In short, don't worry about it, and make the layout. If somebody has suitable CPU and NAND/RAM chips at hand, and tools to try different methods of soldering, it would be nice. | 04:22 |
| Oksana | >> an OMAP ZIF socket to test the soldered stack << would be nice as well | 04:22 |
| chomwitt | arent any simulation software available for such complex soldering? | 04:29 |
| houkime | i believe one could try to extract info from TI itself and save some test runs | 04:30 |
| Oksana | chomwitt : Ideally, TI would outright specify what is necessary for no-trouble soldering of their chip. They do mention possibility of "pre-assembling the PoP stack" which may be helpful | 04:33 |
| houkime | ideally if it doesn't solder with the method they themselves recommended one can ask for refunds | 04:35 |
| chomwitt | so someone out there knows... :-0 | 04:35 |
| chomwitt | thats little comforting... :-) | 04:36 |
| chomwitt | but houkime dont u think that a nice wiki with an updated FAQ could propably made some parts of this conversation or the conversations (that i just learned) more accessible to newcomers and propably to someone how 'knows...' | 04:38 |
| chomwitt | how->who | 04:38 |
| houkime | to be sure though i would recommend using a factory with prior experience with omap3 | 04:39 |
| houkime | chomwitt: yes. Also I can just open an issue for that | 04:40 |
| chomwitt | if someone knows the 'social' part of the project would help. | 04:40 |
| chomwitt | you could even send letters to factories to respond to pick the job | 04:40 |
| houkime | chomwitt: for this sort of stuff i think issues is the most right format because it is... an issue. | 04:42 |
| houkime | One still needs to be a wiki admin and setupper nevrtheless | 04:42 |
| houkime | wiki is a nice thing | 04:43 |
| Oksana | houkime : This issue was already solved once, for GTA04 (which also used OMAP3, apparently). The same factory couldn't replicate success for GTA04A5, though? | 04:43 |
| chomwitt | so the issue was to the new processor or memory GTAO4A5 used? | 04:44 |
| houkime | Oksana: yep, that's quite strange. | 04:44 |
| chomwitt | houkime: ..new issue (hardware,soldering,omap3,etc..) | 04:45 |
| chomwitt | houkime: sure | 04:45 |
| houkime | There might be a thing that while there is a reflow setting for omap3 and is a reflow setting for memory they are not necessarily combined ok. | 04:46 |
| Oksana | chomwitt : Fab said it's problem of different NAND/PoP chip, but then, it could be that their equipment/staff changed | 04:46 |
| chomwitt | Oksana: in that case test should be done it two factories | 04:49 |
| chomwitt | two factories with different machines | 04:50 |
| chomwitt | that could help pinpoint the issue i think | 04:50 |
| chomwitt | so GTA04A5 choose the one.. neo900 should choose another if trying the same chip combo | 04:51 |
| chomwitt | well i'm out of my stuff here. sorry just carried away. | 04:52 |
| chomwitt | have to sleep. | 04:52 |
| chomwitt | thanks for answering my questions. | 04:52 |
| houkime | yw | 04:53 |
| houkime | writing an issue | 04:53 |
| houkime | sth like this https://notabug.org/Houkime/Neo900-Issues/issues/26 | 05:08 |
| houkime | i also need to sleep | 05:14 |
| houkime | bye | 05:14 |
| houkime | hm... mastodon sort of works out, already have an electronics student coming by to say hi | 16:43 |
| houkime | It is sort of nice to have a foss environment with a bunch of foss people. | 16:44 |
| houkime | be back later | 16:45 |
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