freenode/#maemo/ Saturday, 2018-08-11

WikiwideFinally managed to install Fritzing on Nokia N900. Tkgate is not installable because it requires too high libc6 version, I think.00:06
WikiwideAnybody wants to package Fritzing for Maemo? Just move .desktop file to suitable location and edit qt4 dependencies (all these 4:4.7.0 and 1:4.7.0 are making simple things complicated).00:08
WikiwideBonus for editing dependencies of libqt4-help from strict = to more comfortable >=. Fritzing depends on libqt4-help.00:08
WikiwideAnd that's ancient Fritzing 0.6.3 from wheezy00:09
WikiwideSparkFun... Let's see.00:14
WikiwideFritzing is quite slow. Should hildonise it some time...00:15
WikiwideAnd Stellarium should become plug-in of 3D Mappero. Along with weather.00:16
WikiwideAnd mbarcode should become plug-in of camera, if only to avoid switcheroo competition between them.00:17
WikiwidePhotos should become part of Media Player.00:17
WikiwideNotes and Sketch could become one app.00:18
Wikiwide/me is a fan of decreasing length of app list00:19
valeriusWikiwide what is it Fritzing for?00:24
WikiwideElectrical circuits. Breadboard view, schematic view, PCB view.00:28
sixwheeledbeastI imagine it takes some root space. I wouldn't want photos in my media player tbh00:33
sixwheeledbeastUse leafpad for notes but would prefer pluma/gedit, switchroo can but hacked with cl-launcher00:34
sixwheeledbeasts/but/be/00:34
infobotsixwheeledbeast meant: Use leafpad for notes be would prefer pluma/gedit, switchroo can but hacked with cl-launcher00:34
sixwheeledbeastI installed Fritzing on my desktop it seemed to make little sense and installed files in odd locations IIRC.00:36
sixwheeledbeast0.9.x seems to use 9Mb of root on desktop, well over the 0.3Mb allowed by Maemo QA.00:46
* Maxdamantus is a fan of not mashing pieces of software together into difficult-to-maintain monoliths, but is instead a fan of supporting the paradigm of having individual isolated lightweight applications/programs that tend to do one thing.00:49
MaxdamantusIf we have proper isolation of applications at some point, making things like mbarcode a plugin of camera might just be unnecessarily giving a bunch of possibly insecure plugins access to your photos.00:50
MaxdamantusWasn't there some bug in some messaging application in Android or something recently that sent people random photos from their library?00:51
Maxdamantushttps://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/07/a-bug-in-samsungs-default-texting-app-is-sending-random-pics-to-other-people/00:52
WikiwideCl-launcher is good point. I do not want monoliths - more like, plug-ins. Because mbarcode duplicates camera's functionality, to an extent.01:40
WikiwideAnd yes, Fritzing alone takes 5MB of space. Hildonisation would be nice... Unless kicad can be installed, instead of Fritzing.01:42
WikiwideAnd well-written app with plug-ins means that everything is sand-boxed. A plug-in doesn't do anything without user's informed permission. Cannot do anything.03:47
MaxdamantusI think a well-written system will have the dependencies inverted compared to that.03:58
MaxdamantusSo the camera UI would be a service that an application like mbarcode can invoke.03:58
MaxdamantusInstead of the camera UI being able to invoke some mbarcode plugin.03:58
WikiwideGood point.04:00
flashpointis there anything like audacity for the n90004:26
flashpointwhere can I search for software04:26
flashpointwhat's the latest version of maemo for the n90004:27
Maxdamantusflashpoint: I think oscp is meant to be something like that.04:55
Maxdamantus(developed by KotCzarny; I haven't used it though, so not familiar .. I use mpd and qmpc)04:56
WikiwideApp manager, faster app manager, apt-get, aptitude and http://maemo.org/packages all allow to search for software05:26
WikiwideHellmann's chocolate cake recipe smells wonderful, by the way. Despite mayonnaise being best before 7th of May 2018, the unopened packaging preserved it well.05:42
KotCzarnychocolate cake with mayo? o.O09:02
brolin_empeyI thought it would be neat to write a program (for Android because that is what I currently use but I guess it could be done for Maemo too) that checks every time the current cell (in the cellular network) changes to see if the user has entered their home/work/school/whatever cell, then either asks the user if they want to try connecting to the Wireless LAN at home/work/school/whatever or automatically tries to connect to the Wireless LAN at said site.09:13
brolin_empeyAssuming that the user always or usually has the celluar modem enabled, this has the benefit of not putting an additional load on the battery by using the satellite navigation receiver and minimises the ability of the user to be tracked by their Wireless LAN MAC address by someone monitoring Wireless LAN traffic.  As far as I know, the usual way a mobile operating system is able to automatically connect to known Wireless LANs is by periodically performing a09:13
brolin_empeysite survey to check if any of the known Wireless LANs to which the user wants to automatically connect are visible but this has the disadvantages of increased load on the battery and apparently the ability of someone monitoring Wireless LAN traffic to see the names (SSIDs) of the Wireless LANs to which the user wants to automatically connect and also to track the user by their Wireless LAN MAC address.09:13
brolin_empeyPossibly s/minimises/reduces/ .09:14
brolin_empeyActually, it seems that at least on Android OS 4.x, the mobile OS periodically tries to connect to a Wireless LAN (associate with an AP in infrastructure mode, I guess) with the name (SSID) of the Wireless LAN to which the user wants to automatically connect.09:17
brolin_empeyIn 2015, I attended an event (not actually a technology event) where someone had airsnort or airsnort-ng or something similarly named running on a notebook computer monitoring Wireless LAN traffic that saw my handheld computer running Android OS 4.2 or 4.4 automatically trying to connect to my Wireless LAN at home and automatically created a fake/spoof Access Point with the same name (SSID).  My handheld computer seemed to not be fooled into connecting to09:21
brolin_empeythe fake Wireless LAN, though, presumably because of the authentication (WPA2 PSK).09:21
brolin_empeyMy program idea also assumes that the user has cellular service or at least has a SIM that works for emergency calls (if that will suffice to get the numeric identifier of the current cell) and assumes that the user has cellular coverage at the sites of interest and assumes that the size of the cells covering the sites of interest are not too large.  Oh, and it assumes that the home of the user is covered by a different cell than the work/school/whatever of09:29
brolin_empeythe user.09:29
brolin_empeyWell, more generally it assumes that each of the sites of interest is covered by a cell with a unique identifer.09:30
Vajbinteresting read. My latest achievement was to hack new "message received" sound to purple :D09:49
WikiwideKotCzarny : yes, tastes different from our usual chocolate cakes (based on sour cream).10:15
KotCzarnyWikiwide: keep in mind, any food belonging to 'sweets' category should be avoided. they rarely provide any nutrition, only calories and hunger inducing chemicals10:16
Wikiwidebrolin_emprey : it's two separate tasks. One task is add cellular towers into geolocation, another task is to trigger WiFi connections by geographical location.10:16
WikiwideKotCzarny : Good point. Sometimes we bake rye bread (or white bread). But chocolate cake was the only recipe that showed up on the Internet when I was looking for baking with mayonnaise.10:29
KotCzarny:)10:30
WikiwideApologies for interruptions. WiFi signal is weak. Is it possible that kernel settings not being loaded on Nokia N900 due to unexpected reboot are a cause?10:30
KotCzarnyreally, mayo was only invented to cover putrid aroma/taste of bad eggs10:30
WikiwideMayonnaise is ancient, going by Wikipedia. But it is well possible that combination of raw eggs and olive oil in butter produces better results than putting mayonnaise in?10:32
Wikiwides/butter/batter/10:32
infobotWikiwide meant: Mayonnaise is ancient, going by Wikipedia. But it is well possible that combination of raw eggs and olive oil in batter produces better results than putting mayonnaise in?10:32
sixwheeledbeastbrolin_empey: If you don't have any hidden SSID's on your device, you would be less identifiable.10:52
sixwheeledbeastYou are then only listening for the correct SSID to connect, instead of calling out for "HiddenSSIDfoo". Your unique list of Hidden SSID's would then make you identifiable10:55
WikiwideListening for SSIDs eats battery?10:58
WikiwideThat's why he would like to use low-power-consumption "connected to tower" to estimate when it would be beneficial to listen for SSIDs?10:58
sixwheeledbeastWell that is how auto-connect "check every x mins" would work10:59
WikiwideCalling out for HiddenSSID eats battery _and_ reveals private info, yes.10:59
WikiwideIdeally, SSID-modem would have his own smart ways to "switch on" only when there are humans inside the building/apartment, instead of being available to long-nosed sniffers 24/7.11:01
WikiwideBut that's question for modem software, not for Nokia N900.11:01
sixwheeledbeastThe idea may work, however CID's cannot be guaranteed. I can have seen 3 different CID's sat in the same place for example.11:04
WikiwideCellular ID? Unless towers move around on vans, shouldn't there be the same ID all the time?11:05
sixwheeledbeastAlso data consumes more power than wifi, I would prefer to switch modem off and leave wifi on11:06
WikiwideUCID, right? Looking at cell tower info.11:07
WikiwideI am expecting that data is off.11:07
WikiwideOnly basic cellular (calls, SMS) is on.11:07
WikiwideAnd wifi is only available at certain places, like University or home.11:08
WikiwideAnd cellular is used as fast and approximate geolocator to trigger WiFi network search.11:08
WikiwideDust it, MyDocs are full, again!11:09
sixwheeledbeastI am in the middle of 3 towers, depending on weather, maintenance, Dual/2G and the direction I come from. I have seen 3 different cells.11:09
WikiwideOh, that's fine. Is it accurate enough to differentiate between home, workplace, and a point midway between them? Or does the same tower cover all the area?11:11
sixwheeledbeastIt would depend on where you are going, if the local village or pub it would be the same cell for example11:12
WikiwideHuh, I have half an hour walking distance between home and Uni, and yet I expect different towers.11:14
sixwheeledbeastThis cell is the least reliable due to being over utilised and mounted low in a electrical pylon, bad weather etc would cause you to use the next villages cell depending on which side of village you are.11:16
WikiwideIt's crowded here, so I expect cellular towers to provide more precise geolocation than in a rural area.11:17
sixwheeledbeastAnother cell nearby is 3G/4G only for example. Not rural but not urban either. I would call it the English definition of Suburb (not Aussie, which is more like a neighbourhood/borough over here)11:24
Wikiwide2G was switched off entirely here, so there is no choice - 3G always.12:02
KotCzarnydid you switch radio to use 3g only?12:09
KotCzarnyotherwise it also scans 2g freqs12:09
WikiwideShould check, thank you :-)12:10
KotCzarnythere is a band switch applet for systray12:10
WikiwideYes, but I am checking in Settings > Phone. Yes, it's 3G, not Dual, already.12:14
sixwheeledbeastThere is no need for the tray applet if you have no benefit switching it on or off.12:17
WikiwideExactly...12:18
KotCzarnyfor me it's useful12:18
sixwheeledbeastI also find it useful, especially with the mast situation locally.12:19
WikiwideMoving fritzing-data from /usr/share (rootfs?) to MyDocs is a pain. Especially when file transfer is interrupted mid-way by lack of space on MyDocs.12:20
KotCzarnyuse copy + remove instead of mv?12:21
WikiwideNot all fritzing-data for now - just parts. I am wary of moving "bins" directory.12:21
KotCzarnyshouldnt it be installed to /opt then?12:22
WikiwideNay, managed with mv x/* x, rmdir and such. Manual recursion.12:22
WikiwideOpt could be good, but I am of opinion that databases as large as list of possible electric parts for Fritzing, or list of stars and planets for Stellarium, should be stored in MyDocs. Just like tiles for map.12:23
KotCzarnyyou should probably take source package and finetune bins/data prefixes in build script12:25
sixwheeledbeastmaemo-optify tool?12:25
sixwheeledbeasthttps://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs12:25
sixwheeledbeastalso https://wiki.maemo.org/Opt_Problem12:26
KotCzarnyisnt optifier for source packages anyway?12:26
sixwheeledbeast~listkeys opt12:26
infobotFactoid search of 'opt' by key (13 of 68): #maemo-ssu optional ;; .gnugpg/options ;; acanoptic ;; auctoptions ;; cssu-optional ;; emulate optix ;; helicopter88 ;; html <embed optional parameter> ;; i'll include it as an option under dhcp. this ;; jargon non-optimal solution ;; kde optimizations ;; kernel options for dhcp ;; lartlooptest.12:26
WikiwideFritzing parts on MyDocs is said to be 232MB. And yet, on rootfs I have only 58MB free, and 82MB available on home. So how was Fritzing-data storing its parts before I moved it to MyDocs?12:26
WikiwideYes, fine-tuning sounds good. In distant future.12:27
WikiwideAs in, I don't know which program is better suited for such porting - fritzing, kicad or tkgate or ...12:28
KotCzarnymaybe it was autooptified on install12:29
KotCzarnyremove pkg and reinstall, then observe what is happening12:30
WikiwideHow do I know number of files in a directory?12:37
WikiwideBecause Fat32 has like 32kb minimum file size, so with large number of small files... Like, three thousand files or so... 96MB might get added?12:38
KotCzarnyfind . -type f|wc -l12:40
KotCzarnyand if you want to find real used size (with overhead) use du12:41
Wikiwide3533 files, 232MB12:41
Wikiwide/ is not a link/re-direction, /usr - same, /usr/share - same, /usr/share/fritzing - same. How does auto-optification work?12:46
WikiwideBecause fritzing is from wheezy, it wasn't packaged for fremantle yet.12:49
Wikiwide/usr/share/vim is optified, for example - link is visible.12:50
KotCzarnyrefer to wiki pages about the topic, i havent used it12:56
KotCzarnyalso, fat32 has variable block size13:00
KotCzarnyunless you mean 'mydocs is vfat with 32kb block'13:00
Wikiwide/me dutifully edits /var/lib/dpkg/ to keep the package up-to-date with new locations of manually moved files13:01
WikiwideSomething like that, yes. I don't quite understand filesystems.13:01
Wikiwide.list and .md5sums, that's it, I think, for moving a file from one location to another.13:06
WikiwideTired, tired... Good night.13:18
DocScrutinizer05wikiwide pushing for one monolithic eierlegende-wollmilchsau app? sounds like pretty much the thing _nobody_ (but Lennart) wants16:40
DocScrutinizer05heck, I don't want qbarcode integrated into *every* camera since I might have better use for those MB of storage and RAM in my system. Go figure some people don't need qbarcode. Some people need it but with a different or no cameraui at all. Same applies for prerry much every other "monolithic merged mega murder app"16:44
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: cell IDs are pretty much persistent. For 3G one tower may have completely different CIDs though, on segments. WLAN is a massive power hog when searching for APs16:47
flashpointwhere are the newest repositories16:48
KotCzarny~maemo-repos16:49
infobotrumour has it, maemo-repos is http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories16:49
flashpointdo you use application manager16:50
flashpointit's slow as hell, is there a faster one?16:50
KotCzarnyupgrade to cssu16:50
flashpointpretty sure I did, that was back in 201516:50
KotCzarnyapp manager got fixed there16:50
flashpointit's cssu16:51
DocScrutinizer05>>[2018-08-11 10:58:58] <Wikiwide> That's why he would like to use low-power-consumption "connected to tower" to estimate when it would be beneficial to listen for SSIDs?<< makes perfect sense16:51
flashpointI didn't remember entire seconds going past while something opens16:51
KotCzarnyuse dpkg to check what is the app manager version16:52
jogaa couple of weeks ago there was discussion about e-ink etc... not directly related to n900 but if someone's interested I wrote a little thing https://github.com/joukos/PaperTTY :)16:52
KotCzarnyjoga: cool, but why pythoooon, doh16:52
flashpointI've forgotten how to use debian16:54
flashpointdpkg abcdef ?16:54
KotCzarnydpkg -l|grep n-ma16:55
DocScrutinizer05>><sixwheeledbeast> I am in the middle of 3 towers,...<< see my "GSM positioning, revisited (again)" atricles/posts on openmoko ML on that very topic16:56
DocScrutinizer05http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/002987.html16:57
flashpointwht's the latest veresion16:58
jogaKotCzarny, why not? :)16:58
KotCzarnyjoga: deps ;)16:58
jogatarget system already had it :)16:59
KotCzarnyflashpoint: it's 2.2.73-2+... on mine16:59
joga(and without it I couldn't have done it in a couple of days - I have a small kid nowadays so free time isn't abundant) ;)16:59
KotCzarnyjoga: anyway, thanks! i might rip some parts out of it ;)16:59
jogafeel free16:59
flashpointso this is cssu like I said and it's the "latest" version17:00
KotCzarnyjoga: btw. did you consider doing the same for generic fb?17:00
KotCzarnyi mean, using generic fb as a data source17:01
joganot at the moment, I did consider a vnc client for a while but I've no time right now for such17:01
KotCzarnyand adding some param to nly update on request or some period17:01
flashpointare you trying to get facebook working on this thing17:01
KotCzarnyfb is shorthand for framebuffer17:01
flashpointthere are entire seconds between clicking on something and it happening17:02
KotCzarnyflashpoint: there is a high chance your device suffers from low memory17:02
flashpointyou mean the low amount of memory that they put in it in 2009?17:02
flashpointor is it something I can do something about17:03
KotCzarnyyes, and you running lots of widgets/apps17:03
flashpointno it's not crammed with garbage17:03
flashpointI keep devices fairly clean17:04
flashpointI need to update the repositories17:05
KotCzarnythere was a link on the wiki page that was click-friendly17:05
flashpointdoes cute tube2 still work17:06
flashpointwhich audio software is available for the n900?17:19
flashpointKotCzarny, someone said you wrote a bunch of it17:19
KotCzarnyyes17:19
KotCzarnyhttps://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=3217:19
KotCzarnyfeel free to browse17:20
flashpointI shall!17:20
DocScrutinizer05Oksana: wikiwde: sixwheeledbeast: (CID for determining whether to enable WLAN) it's however a short jump since maemo's location lib uses GPS, ~U-TDOA, *and* a combined augmented version of skyhook-wireless that also does exactly this: listen for nearby CIDs and use a database to find a rough estimation of location. IOW maemo's liblocation is a comprehensive superset of the CID-method sugested by you17:30
brolin_empeyflashpoint: The slow response time may be normal.  I had a bad user experience, including the UI being too slow to respond, with my N900 even with CSSU so I switched to an Android smartphone in 2014.23:43

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