libera/#maemo/ Tuesday, 2018-06-12

jonwilDamn, I can't find any instructions on how to rebuild scratchbox (which I want to do to update some stuff for SSH), I can find the Scratchbox source code and I can find plenty of binaries but no instructions on how to actually rebuild it the way I need to :(08:05
KotCzarnyrebuild parts you need then08:12
KotCzarnymight be easier for you08:12
jonwilI cant find how to rebuild just SSH either08:25
jonwilthe ssh binary is part of scratchbox-core08:26
jonwilso I need to rebuild all of that package08:26
Oksanajonwil : Is this relevent? https://wiki.maemo.org/Icecream_Scratchbox_Howto#Compiling_icecc sbox > ./configure --prefix=/scratchbox/tools08:34
Oksanarelevant *08:34
jonwilNo, thats for compiling icecc (whatever that is) for use with Scratchbox08:35
jonwilI need instructions for rebuilding Scratchbox itself (which dont seem to exist, even in the docs on scratchbox.org)08:35
jonwilNo information on what build environment/prerequisites I need or where to get them and no information on how to actually build the thing :(08:37
Oksanajonwil : is installation of a scratchbox toolchain in any way similar to installation of scratchbox-core? http://www.mono-project.com/archived/scratchbox/08:54
jonwilThat's how you install scratchbox, not how you actually compile scratchbox-core (and scratchbox-libs and such) from the "scratchbox" source package) and get some .deb files out the other end.08:55
KotCzarnyjonwil, maybe you should read about generic scratchbox compilation? it's not only maemo's thing08:56
jonwilI cant find anything generic either08:56
jonwilI can't find anything anywhere on scratchbox.org or google that explains how you compile the "scratchbox" source package08:56
OksanaI would have felt easier if I saw source packages in debian format, and not in tarball format.08:57
jonwilThe tarball has a debian folder inside it08:58
jonwildpkg-buildpackage just says "cannot open `debian/changelog' for reading"08:58
jonwilso clearly there is some other step you need to do which isn't documented anywhere08:59
Oksanajonwil : check permissions?08:59
jonwilthe file doesn't exist08:59
jonwilthere is a debian/changelog.in file though08:59
OksanaDoesn't exist... How can a changelog not exist?08:59
jonwilso presumably something else translates that into debian/changelog from elsewhere08:59
KotCzarnyautoconf -vif ?08:59
jonwilIt looks like it takes the changelog from the version history of the repo (its a repo from something called darcs apparently)09:00
jonwilOr possibly from somewhere else09:02
Oksanatarball is confusing, I do not even see debian folder in it09:09
jonwilI dont know what you are looking at but http://www.scratchbox.org/download/files/sbox-releases/hathor/src/ clearly has a debian folder inside the scratchbox-1.0.25.tar.gz file09:10
OksanaHuh... I was looking at /tarball/, not /src/. One moment...09:11
jonwilwell actually I pulled my tree from http://scratchbox.org/repos/1.0/scratchbox/ which supplies version 1.0.26 of Scratchbox rather than the 1.0.25 version09:14
jonwilI want 1.0.26 since that's what is installed on my system09:14
Oksanachangelog.in sounds exactly like a changelog, except for <DATE> variable.09:15
OksanaGoing by rules, make has to be invoked. And this make, when asked for binary-arch, invokes dh_builddeb.09:19
OksanaPutting the whole "turn changelog.in into changelog" routine inside "rules" file sounds ugly. Ugly like a wall of text in IRC.09:21
OksanaNice line >>@echo "Use the ./build script to build Scratchbox!"<<09:23
jonwilOk, that's useful09:23
OksanaJust reading the Makefile ;-)09:23
OksanaIt's like walking backwards, and using reflective surfaces in front of you to see terrain behind you - and dramatic "!!" exclamation points. At least, build script is talkative.09:25
jonwilRunning it gives me a bunch of "missing packages" none of which exist in the repos currently set up in my VM09:27
OksanaWhich packages? Are they available somewhere else?09:28
jonwilThose repos being "ubuntu lucid", "scratchbox hathor" and something to do with garage09:28
jonwilhttps://pastebin.com/FWR7GC8K is the errors I get09:29
KotCzarnyyou need older distro09:30
KotCzarnyehehehe09:30
KotCzarnytry something from 2009 era09:30
ceenegcc 3.309:30
ceenelol09:30
KotCzarny;)09:30
KotCzarnywell, at least its not 2.96 ;)09:31
ceeneyou should try running that on a debootstrap of debian squeeze maybe09:31
OksanaDaunting. I used to have Firefox 1 installed somewhere, that's ancient. But a whole ancient distribution...09:32
ceenei should still have the CDs i bought from some online site of Debian Potato :)09:32
* KotCzarny has redhat 3.0.3 cds somewhere09:33
KotCzarnyand debian 209:33
* Oksana would have hoped that with backwards compatibility and what not, it's possible to adapt scratchbox-core to compiling with the latest gcc and such09:33
OksanaUnfortunately, while the latest gcc may make scratchbox faster (at least on modern processors), it would also probably make scratchbox more bloated? Just guessing, now idea how gcc and others changed since then.09:36
Oksanano * idea09:36
KotCzarnyi would say more buggy09:38
KotCzarny:)09:38
KotCzarnyit was abandoned in 2010 in favor of sb209:38
* Oksana thinks that an auto-builder for scratchbox packages would be a nice idea... It would probably need a total isolation between ancient packages necessary for building scratchbox packages, and new packages needed for converting /src/ to /deb/09:38
KotCzarnyimo, whole maemo build infra should just move to arm server/native compilation09:38
OksanaHmm, what's the difference between scratchbox and sb2 ?09:38
KotCzarnythere are fast enough arm boards available09:39
OksanaKotCzarny : probably. It would be easier to do by setting up auto-builder for leste on an ARM server first , and then expanding to older maemo distributions.09:40
KotCzarnyin my understanding sb1 runs as a chroot/qemu vm, sb2 is more like cross-compiler (system wise)09:41
jonwilThe basic problem I have right now is that the scratchbox ssh binary (and openssl lib it uses) is so outdated it can't talk to github anymore.09:43
KotCzarnyjonwil: just replace binary?09:43
jonwilHence the desire to rebuild scratchbox-core (and through that the scratchbox ssh binary) with a newer openssl09:43
jonwilIts not a plain vanilla binary, the scratchbox build system does something special09:44
KotCzarnythat's why i asked for maemo specific patches for sbox/ssh09:44
KotCzarnyand yes, sb will happily run arm binaries, just slower09:45
KotCzarnyif you just need ssh for github access it might be easier path09:45
ceenewhy do you want for scratchbox to talk to github?09:46
jonwilI want to be able to pull git repos inside scratchbox09:46
ceenei would just do it from the outside09:46
ceeneless of a hassle it seems09:46
KotCzarnyjonwil, then just compile newer ssh statically and put somewhere in the inside path09:47
jonwilLooks like moving the host scratchbox ssh out of the way and then using the openssh-client package installed into Scratchbox allows gitlab to work09:47
jonwilthe one compiled for ARM09:48
jonwilSo for now I think I am good.09:49
jonwilThe good thing about experimenting with this is that I was able to find the right magic to wire the dev VM itself (i.e. not the Scratchbox root) up to the correct Ubuntu archives so I can apt-get things for ubuntu now (as well as the SB chroot)09:51
jonwilSo that's good.09:51
jonwilMy ubuntu dev VM is now as up-to-date as its possible to get for a Lucid install :)09:52
KotCzarnymaemo: i personally just hacked sb1 a bit into working minimal chroot i can run on arm board09:53
KotCzarnyso i can compile natively09:53
KotCzarny(also on n900, but that's a side effect)09:53
jonwilI seriously doubt my poor little N900 could compile something as large as QT...09:55
ceenei remember i took a couple hours or something like that on a i7 with 16gb of ram09:55
ceene*it took09:55
KotCzarnyjonwil: get 2gb orange pi +2e09:55
KotCzarny:)09:55
KotCzarnyfor fun and kicks09:56
jonwilWhy would I do that when I have a perfectly good Ubuntu dev VM :)09:56
KotCzarnyfor arm freedom, ofc09:56
KotCzarnyfrom great x86 oppression!09:56
OksanaKotCzarny : Good point, but I don't particularly like Raspberry Pi. It has HDMI port...09:58
KotCzarnyno, rpi is bad hardware, the only good thing about it is big community, everything else is marketing09:59
jonwilI wish someone would make something that has all the functionality and features of the pi except without all the proprietary Broadcomm crap required10:00
KotCzarnyjonwil, they do10:00
KotCzarnyjust google around10:00
KotCzarnyarm boards market is growing fast10:01
OksanaKotCzarny : Any board in particular to have a look at?10:01
KotCzarnybroadcom is as bad as qualcomm, they run machine in a machine10:01
KotCzarnyoksana: it all depends what you need it for10:01
KotCzarnyyour question is kind 'what computer to have a look at'10:02
KotCzarnydifferent one for cad, for gaming, for multimedia, for mobility, etc10:02
Wizzupisn't the pi 3d open source now?10:03
KotCzarnywizzup, you still get videocore managing you from above10:04
OksanaKotCzarny : Small ARM board that can run modern Linux, and work like a mobile/pocket battery-based phone/assistant (wireless connectivity can be USB-attachable, instead of hard-wired)10:04
Wizzupsounds like most arm boards10:05
KotCzarnyoksana: look at c.h.i.p. with the case its nice form factor and pretty complete for mobility10:05
KotCzarnyit's only single core, but if you dont demand fast web browsing it should do10:05
OksanaI got PocketChip, but too lazy to actually open and use it. And the company making CHIP has gone into insolvency since then.10:05
KotCzarnysure, but chip uses quite well reverseengineered software10:06
KotCzarnyso you can do practically anything with it10:06
OksanaWill probably get around to actually configuring PocketChip somewhen. But currently, just shudder at thought of using Google Chrome to flash firmware onto PocketChip.10:06
KotCzarnylol10:07
KotCzarnythen just learn what it does10:07
KotCzarnyunless it has nand instead of emmc10:07
KotCzarnythen you can just run it off sdcard and use dd to write firmware, or install os10:08
jonwilThe TI OMAP found in the N900 is a pretty good chip. The GPU needs binary blobs but they aren't 100% essential, can be replaced with a FOSS driver if such a thing ever exists and are fully under the control of the user (the kernel-bits are 100% FOSS for example)10:08
KotCzarnyhmm, it has nand, oh well, a bit trickier, but still doable10:09
OksanaTrickier, as in, use SD card for Chrome-free flashing?10:10
KotCzarnytickier as in legacy kernel nand driver and mainline kernel nand driver are different and incompatible10:11
KotCzarny*trickier10:11
tom13hello/  what is the best use for a n900 with broken usb port?11:55
KotCzarnygift for a skilled developer11:58
inzN900 fly12:03
tom13can the port be fixed?12:05
KotCzarnyyes12:05
KotCzarnybut not by novices12:05
tom13i wish n900 had 512MB12:07
tom13is someone in germany who fixes usb?12:07
KotCzarnyyes, any gsm repair shop12:08
KotCzarnybut better go to bigger/more renowned ones12:08
tom13gsm?12:08
KotCzarnyshabby work can make matters worse12:08
KotCzarnygsm as in cellphone12:08
KotCzarnyor tablet12:08
tom13ok12:08
tom13i still have one with good usb12:09
tom13should i epoxy it, or is that useless?12:09
KotCzarny~usbfix12:10
infobotmethinks usbfix is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1866, you will basically need two irons: a small good one (or better hot-air reflow) and a 60+ Watt, or to avoid breakage, see ~usb-unplug12:10
tom13ty12:12
tom13is n900 basically only good for non-javascript browsing now?12:13
KotCzarnyyup. you can use old fennec (firefox 17 for mobile) to get more sites working12:13
KotCzarnystill, not much you can do with limited ram12:13
tom13ty12:13
KotCzarnykeep in mind fennec will be slow, but if you only need something clicked etc might be enough12:14
KotCzarnycurrently jonwil tries to update microb engine to support tls1.2 etc12:14
tom13mhm12:14
tom13wow12:15
tom13i am chatting on droid 4 with sailfish now12:15
tom13but maemo on droid 4 would be fun12:15
KotCzarnythere is some work done in that direction12:16
KotCzarnysee maemo-leste12:16
KotCzarnyit's far from even beta yet, but ..12:16
tom13would the n900 binaries run without recompiling on the omap4?12:17
KotCzarnydepends on os12:18
tom13with maemo-leste12:18
KotCzarnymight12:19
tom13so both are eh, armhf right12:20
KotCzarnyno12:20
KotCzarnyfremantle is using armel12:20
tom13oh i haver armv7l12:21
KotCzarnyarmel vs armhf is about how libs and floating point are used12:21
KotCzarnyboth are for arm7l too12:21
tom13how do i see if my sailfish is armel12:22
KotCzarnyldd maybe12:23
KotCzarnyor dpkg -l |grep something12:24
tom13k12:24
tom13I ried n900 again.  i cant go back to that keyboard.13:13
tom13and xt894 has 4x cpu, 4x ram13:15
dreamertoo bad maemo-leste doesn't run very well on it yet13:22
dreamer6113:23
dreamerwoops13:23
dreamer6113:23
dreamerdamnit. my ctrl-key is broken is smth. moment13:23
Wizzuptom13: the droid4 keyboard isn't as nice as the n900 keyboard, yeah13:34
Wizzupdreamer: on n900 or droid (or both?:P)13:34
tom13whatOA13:35
dreamerWizzup: I think he means other way around13:35
tom13droid 4 is so much better13:35
dreamerand I meant droid413:35
dreamer:)13:35
Wizzupon the droid4 I miss keys all the time even though I do press them13:35
tom13oh i have one droid4 with that problem13:35
tom13swapped the mainboard13:36
tom13s/have/had/13:36
tom13missed keypresses are unforgiveable13:36
dreamernever have that on my n90013:36
WizzupI think I might have it on both droids, but didn't test that proeprly13:37
WizzupI mostlu use my n90013:37
tom13i still liked the maemo days best13:37
Wizzup:)13:37
dreamerI only use my n900 for calls/text/alarm/music/terminal13:38
dreamerthe rest doesn't really work well. but I don't need much else from a 'phone' anyway13:38
tom13a free n900 from nokia made it even funner13:38
dreamerdual core and more ram would maybe make browsing functional13:38
tom13yeh n900 fm transmitter is very nice for me, car has no bluetooth13:38
dreamer:)13:38
tom13i think kernel 4.14 fixed the large file copy hangup that n900 had13:39
tom13you ever copy a 600MB iso to n900 microsd?13:40
Wizzupare you talking about linux cache?13:40
tom13yes13:40
Maxdamantuskill -STOP cp .. kill -CONT cp ..13:44
Maxdamantuss/kill/killall/13:44
infobotMaxdamantus meant: killall -STOP cp .. kill -CONT cp ..13:44
Maxdamantuss/$/g/13:44
Wizzup'sync' ?13:45
Maxdamantussync doesn't help.13:45
Maxdamantusunless you mean as an option to `dd`13:45
Maxdamantussync(2) basically just means "wait until the writes before now have been committed to disk"13:46
Wizzupdoesn't help with what13:46
Wizzupslow IO can looks like hangups.13:46
Maxdamantuswith throttling the copy.13:46
Wizzupdid he ask on ow to do that?13:46
WizzupI'm confused13:46
MaxdamantusI'm guessing he's referring to the behaviour where Linux will not block writes to slow devices until it runs out of memory for use by the disk cache.13:48
Wizzupright13:49
Maxdamantusso when copying a file from a fast device to a slow device, eventually you're going to end up with a system that won't be able to allocate/swap in pages until it has written some dirty pages to disk.13:50
Maxdamantusright, so the way you need to solve that is by somehow blocking/throttling the writes in `cp` before the system gets into that state.13:50
Maxdamantuswhich an external `sync(2)` doesn't do.13:51
Maxdamantussince all `sync(2)` does is wait for pages that were dirty before the call to no longer be dirty.13:51
tom13yeh and this got addressed in 4.14 i think13:51
Wizzupsurprising13:52
Maxdamantus(and possibly also encourage the underlying filesystem to commit faster)13:52
tom13thank you for the killall tip13:52
tom13or rather -STOP / -CONT13:53
MaxdamantusThat's nice to know .. will try it soon.13:53
bencohhow did they address it then?14:22
MaxdamantusI'm guessing it's due to the changes in 547248..aac8d414:42
Maxdamantusthough that was only merged into 4.15-rc114:46
tom13my favorite quote of the day: "You don't even know what country i'm in.  Much less which Kanton." :)18:38
sparre:-)19:03
tom13so i think maybe 4 n900s is too much for me19:26
tom13just need 1-2 for reference/nostalgia19:26
tom13anyone need one19:26
Wizzupis it broken in any way?19:27
tom13yea19:27
tom13usb19:27
tom13but with the right touch it charges19:27
Wizzupsounds like fixable usb :)19:30
tom13nokia 770, n810 and n900 will always be some of my happiest memories19:38
tom13but i already burned out with n90019:38
tom13but i'm still alive, unlike... gary19:38
tom13maybe someday we do a youtube or webpage dedicated to him19:39
tom13and liqbase?19:39
tom13you know lcuk Wizzup ?19:39
KotCzarnyyeah19:39
KotCzarnyhe was a great dev19:39
tom13you see Wizzup we had the 770 and 800 - tablets which used a desktop click and scrollbar metaphor19:40
tom13some of the game/emu devs started figuring out how to blit graphics to n800 screen faster19:41
tom13and lcuk had the idea, of scrolling the screen with the finger pulling19:41
tom13instead of a menubar19:41
tom13i'm not sure if he was the first ever to do that19:42
tom13but he was the first to do it on maemo19:42
tom13me and lcuk and somebody else were at a conference in brussels19:43
tom13we had taken a hotel room together19:44
tom13were walking around the redlight district. had a bunch of beers19:44
tom13we got tired and went back but lcuk decided he wanted to visit ... one of the people there19:44
tom13a few hours later he came back... "guys - i got mugged :("19:44
tom13i lost the pictures19:45
tom13KotCzarny: you should learn to make fun shader effects for linux mobile19:46
KotCzarnyi had my own part of pixel processing engine19:46
KotCzarnysee 'osc'19:47
tom13you never got into shaders?\19:50
KotCzarnynot the usual 3d accelerated ones19:53
KotCzarnyo.o19:58
tom13i did some 2d shader work20:05
tom13filtering for emulators20:05
tom13have you seen shadertoy.com KotCzarny ?20:05
KotCzarnyi think i was browsing it few years ago20:05
KotCzarnypersonally i prefer my pixel engine20:06
tom13it is more flexible20:06
KotCzarnymore flexible than dynamically compiled c code?20:06
tom13but it's like pulling a cart with a hamster when you have a horse standing there20:06
tom13osc is more flexible than shaders20:07
KotCzarnyyes, i can use any c code / device i would want20:07
tom13yeh but it gets boring at 8-12 fps20:07
KotCzarnywithout any user recompilation, core does it all itself20:07
KotCzarnydepends on the code20:07
KotCzarnycan be ran at higher fps with different algos20:08
tom13yeah nothing against osc20:08
tom13it's fun20:08
KotCzarnyjust different target20:08
tom13did you see it running on the Archos 80 tablet?20:08
KotCzarnyshaders are generally graphics only enhancers20:09
KotCzarnyosc is for doing whatever hardware allows20:09
tom13there are branching limitations20:09
tom13in shaders20:09
tom13but a lot of the copy operations and blend operations in osc20:09
tom13could be done in shaders20:09
tom13you remember original idea was to do something like goom20:10
tom13the clouds effect20:10
tom13copy, transpose, blend20:10
KotCzarnyblend is for fluff20:11
tom13ok you can apply a function to r,g,b, values too20:11
KotCzarnyoriginally osc was about mixing algo with user input20:11
tom13so can shader20:11
KotCzarnyso each frame would be recreated20:11
KotCzarnyand also to visualize various graphics algos20:12
KotCzarnyand learn20:12
tom13do you run osc on pc sometimes?20:12
KotCzarnysometimes, was a long time. mostly i just play on n90020:13
tom13how many people in maemo were in it to prevent tyranny?20:18
Wizzuptom13: nope, don't know him20:20
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tom13  ▞▟▚▜▛▌▘  ▐▝▐█▘▚▗    ▚▝▐▗▗  ▘█▘▘▗ ▞▀▄▀ ▟▀▀▜▝▝▖▗█▘▘▘▗█▘▗ ▚▗█▟▜▙▜▟▟▟▞▟▟▞▟▗▄▙ ▖▚ ▘▖            ▀▀▐▌22:06
tom13█▜▙▜▚▚▜▘  ▚▝▝▖▌▌▘▖▖▗▟▟▀▗   ▖▖▖█▟▝▞▀▀▄▀▀▖▝█▜▜▙▜▙▜▙▙▙▙▛▙▙▜▙▜▛▙▛▙▛▙▌▙▞▙▙▐▚▚▚▗▟▄ ▄▚ ▗█▖        ▛▐▐22:06
tom13▛▐ ▚▜ ▚  ▀▙▙▚▄▞▞▐▚▖  ▚▗▗  ▘▝▖▝▀▘▜ ▀▀▀▗▗█▘▘▖▖▘▗▗ ▌▝▝▝▖▝▗█▘▗ ▐▜▟▟▙▜▟▞▟▐▜▞▙▚▚▖▖█▙▄▄▘▖▗       ▚▌▖█▟▟▄22:06
Wizzupthanks Sigyn ...22:08
Wizzupglad you're here...22:08
KotCzarny:)22:08
sicelo:p22:09
Wizzup/s22:09
DocScrutinizer05slow though22:16
DocScrutinizer05should act more trigger happy against ascii art and color22:16

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