agris | What will Devuan do with Regards to XFCE 4.14? | 01:57 |
---|---|---|
agris | which makes gtk3 mandatory and hides functionality behind hamburger menus | 01:58 |
agris | and looks like a phone app rather than a computer program | 01:58 |
agris | will Devuan merge this into stable? | 01:58 |
agris | or is there another option | 01:58 |
Jjp137 | ugh as an Xfce user, I'm not looking forward to that... | 02:03 |
fsmithred | what does debian plan to do with it? With the exception of a couple packages, xfce comes from them | 02:03 |
golinux | ascii will be good for another few years. | 02:10 |
agris | fsmithred, Debian doesn't care at all, the are GNOME3 now | 02:13 |
fsmithred | 4.12 is still in sid/ceres | 02:15 |
agris | but for how long | 02:15 |
fsmithred | probably need to follow debian mailing lists for find out | 02:16 |
fsmithred | someone could step up and compile all of it for gtk2, I guess, but who's gonna maintain gtk2? | 02:16 |
Witeds | i am curious about somthing i installed beowulf so that i could comiple mesa but i can't seem to get libuuid1:i386 to install on a multi arch setup along side libuuid1:amd64 but in the past there was no issue with this and on other distros as well | 02:17 |
agris | gtk2 is already maintained as far as I'm aware | 02:17 |
agris | still see git commits on that branch for bugfixes every now and then | 02:17 |
agris | but as I see it, gtk2 is largely complete | 02:17 |
agris | as in finished and mature | 02:17 |
fsmithred | Witeds, I think there's a problem with some packages that don't have the same version in i386 and amd64 | 02:18 |
fsmithred | you might be running into that | 02:18 |
Witeds | its been trying to overwrite the entire 64bit install | 02:19 |
fsmithred | that sounds familiar. I don't know if there's a way around it. | 02:20 |
Witeds | ok thanks | 02:21 |
agris | fsmithred, why did you think gtk2 wasn't maintained? | 02:22 |
fsmithred | I'm predicting the future. It's based on the fact that I saw the word, gtk4, printed somewhere on the internet. | 02:23 |
fsmithred | If our default desktop turns into phone trash in the future, we'll probably adopt a different default. | 02:25 |
fsmithred | got lots of time before we worry about that | 02:25 |
agris | fsmithred, gnome is already working on gtk5 | 02:29 |
agris | As I understand it gtk+2 is the gimp toolkit | 02:29 |
agris | general purpose toolkit | 02:29 |
fsmithred | yeah, I always thought it meant gimp tool kit | 02:29 |
agris | gtk+3 and up and the GNOME toolkit, that only target Gnome's usecases and needs without regard to anyone else | 02:29 |
fsmithred | not really relevant in this channel | 02:30 |
agris | if you read the messages from gnome developers on the Deluge-gtk mailing list it will reinforce that this is their way of thinking | 02:30 |
fsmithred | we know | 02:30 |
agris | ok | 02:30 |
fsmithred | and we don't think that way | 02:30 |
agris | I'm worried about the future | 02:38 |
agris | I don't to have to load a big third party repo of my own and have to to all this work myself if things were to hit the fan | 02:40 |
gnarface | but having that big repo is exactly how you would deal with it if shit did hit the fan | 02:49 |
agris | well in that case | 02:56 |
agris | shit already hit the fan in Gentoo because that's what i'm doing right now | 02:56 |
agris | the thing about choosing a distro is that having the least amount of things that need to be changed to make it usable for your goals | 03:07 |
agris | I guess that's what you people are doing | 03:08 |
agris | Devuan being a 'big repo' that undoes systemd, but still debian | 03:08 |
fsmithred | our repo is actually pretty small | 03:09 |
agris | It's hard. I want to develop Devuan but I hate what's left of the Debian community | 03:09 |
agris | or at least the loudest part of it | 03:09 |
gnarface | agris: there's people out there actively peddling malicious misinformation. try not to inadvertently become one of them. | 03:15 |
agris | what do you mean by that gnarface ? | 03:16 |
gnarface | i mean that a lot of the stuff you claim to be worried about makes you sound like a troll | 03:16 |
gnarface | so, either you are a troll, or someone put a lot of really bad ideas in your head | 03:17 |
gnarface | and it's been going around | 03:18 |
agris | well I don't know how you could come to that conclusion. I am genuinely worried about gtk+ | 03:18 |
gnarface | but the same software you have installed that currently works with gtk2 will keep working with gtk2 forever as long as you never update it | 03:19 |
gnarface | and there are scenarios where that is okay | 03:19 |
gnarface | and even if i'm wrong, it'll be years before it matters still | 03:20 |
agris | That's not entirely true. the dependencies of that software break or programming language functions become deprecated | 03:20 |
gnarface | sure, but probably not for what most people are doing | 03:20 |
gnarface | not for decades anyway | 03:21 |
gnarface | if you want to keep installing new software and updating to the latest version of stuff, of course that changes things | 03:21 |
agris | If it was that easy I wouldn't be nearly as distraught. working with C or C++ (well maybe not soo much C) I experience this problem quite a bit | 03:21 |
agris | programs in Python on the other hand | 03:21 |
gnarface | but you have to be able to rationally evaluate the need to update your shit compulsively | 03:21 |
agris | a lot easier to maintain | 03:21 |
gnarface | don't succumb to shiny new shit syndrome | 03:21 |
gnarface | keep backups | 03:22 |
gnarface | keep spare parts | 03:22 |
gnarface | and if you need to be on the bleeding edge of everything and xfce won't do what you want | 03:22 |
gnarface | ... consider a new WM | 03:22 |
gnarface | there are tons of them | 03:22 |
gnarface | you don't have to be married to the defaults of everything | 03:23 |
gnarface | that's a very windows-centric viewpoint | 03:23 |
gnarface | the panic itself... that's just spinning your wheels, really | 03:24 |
agris | you know I guess your right. A lot of my problems are Gentoo problems. I've become afraid to invest into a platform because every other portage sync I have do a whole bunch of work to go through git and restore ebuilds, blacklist new library updates, and at this point probably have 40% of my userspace coming from my own repo | 03:33 |
gnarface | heh, yea that sounds like why i stopped trying to get work done with gentoo, too | 03:34 |
agris | I don't have these problems nearly as often on my Devuan laptops and servers | 03:34 |
agris | and the only things I really want that are new are ZFS 8 (for SSD trim support) and a custom kernel config tuned for realtime so things feel snappy. and I'm planning to toss my nvidia 1070 due to constant proprietary driver issues anyways | 03:36 |
JohnDoe2 | well yes it's a really bad idea (regex) | 03:37 |
JohnDoe2 | my bad, wrong channel | 03:38 |
agris | I can certainly keep around programs like Twinkle software and patch it as needed for a 3-6 year Debian LTS support model | 03:38 |
agris | mate-system-monitor 1.12.2 | 03:40 |
agris | mumble patches for jack support | 03:40 |
agris | gnarface, thank you for helping me figure out the issues I was having with building backports earlier | 03:47 |
gnarface | no problem agris | 03:48 |
agris | btw that issue I was having with the mirrors, it wasn't peering issues (well it was a little bit but that wasn't the main cause). It was a $250 broadcom based access point. For some reason it was mangling TCP packets like crazy causing Linux's TCP congestion control to throw a fit. Tried updating firmware no difference. Ended up replacing it with a 8 year old $50 Atheros based access point running OpenWRT. problems solved | 03:52 |
agris | in fact wireless clients are now 30 megabits faster on average | 03:53 |
gnarface | oh | 03:53 |
gnarface | interesting | 03:53 |
gnarface | i wonder if it might have been a MTU mismatch | 03:53 |
gnarface | i had a lag issue with my nintendo because the new ones default to 1400 stock, but my whole network is set at 1500 (default afaik) | 03:54 |
agris | yeah, that was a really obscure issue. No, It wasn't MTU mismatch. the whole network supported 1500byte packets. I tested that and it wasn't fragmentation. | 03:54 |
gnarface | weird | 03:54 |
gnarface | well broadcom stuff has been sucky for me in general | 03:54 |
gnarface | so i believe it might have had unresolved bugs | 03:54 |
agris | It was duplicate TCP ACKS and TCP Retransmissions | 03:55 |
gnarface | weird | 03:55 |
gnarface | sounds hacked honestly | 03:55 |
gnarface | but you said flashing firmware didn't fix it? | 03:55 |
agris | and it only occured with TCP connections that had higher than ~90ms latency | 03:55 |
agris | that's why I couldn't reproduce it with iperf3 on the lan | 03:56 |
agris | and most websites were not effected | 03:56 |
agris | well 90+ms and 15-20ms | 03:56 |
agris | I don't know why those specific ranges triggered that but that's what I found. And It's not like it was doing any routing or filtering. It was setup as a dumbap. and yeah, installin latest firmware did not fix it | 03:58 |
se7en | I have kind of a strange question. How does one set their mailspool by enviornment? | 04:51 |
se7en | I think I may have upset that | 04:51 |
se7en | It's just $MAIL, right? | 04:53 |
agris | se7en, It's usually defined by the FHS in /var/mail/<username>/ (legacy location is /var/spool/mail/<username>/ or ~/Maildir | 04:56 |
agris | How big is the Devuan repositories? | 04:56 |
agris | (not including Debian) | 04:56 |
se7en | I have my mail in /var/spool/mail/se7en, and have been trying to fix fetchmail | 04:57 |
se7en | Fetchmail's default expected behavior is to write to the spool | 04:58 |
se7en | It doesn't | 04:58 |
se7en | It tries to send it to port 25 on the localhost | 04:58 |
se7en | Then, if I add procmail as an mda, I get a broken pipe | 04:58 |
se7en | agris: | 04:59 |
agris | se7en, I do not know about procmail, so you'll probably have to wait a bit longer for someone else to answer BUT if your not set on pracmail and need a mda/mta I highly recommend OpenSMTPd. It is massively simpler to configure, provides sendmail-like userspace tools, and supports both mbox and maildir. a basic secure configuration can be done in 5 lines | 05:01 |
agris | https://www.opensmtpd.org/ | 05:02 |
se7en | All I want to do is fix fetchmail | 05:04 |
se7en | It just fails for unknown reasons | 05:04 |
agris | accept for local alias <aliases> deliver to mbox | 05:04 |
se7en | And it's fuly setup otherwise | 05:04 |
gnarface | se7en: you sure it's not just permissions? | 05:06 |
se7en | It may be | 05:09 |
onefang | agris: The Devuan (without Debian) ISO mirror is 38GB, the package mirror is 41 GB. Or my copies are. | 05:09 |
se7en | gnarface: | 05:10 |
se7en | [20:10 root@lappy se7en] > ls -l /var/spool/mail/* | 05:10 |
se7en | -rw-r--r-- 1 root mail 0 Aug 24 18:10 /var/spool/mail/root | 05:10 |
se7en | -rw-rw---- 1 se7en mail 0 Aug 24 18:35 /var/spool/mail/se7en | 05:10 |
gnarface | onefang: is that just amd64 though? | 05:13 |
onefang | That's one of the official mirrors. | 05:13 |
gnarface | se7en: how about errors logs for mail in /var/log? | 05:13 |
gnarface | you might just want to consider letting it deliver to localhost:25 | 05:15 |
gnarface | i think that's considered completely normal | 05:18 |
se7en | It'll take more work and this used to just werk before my upgrae to ascii | 05:20 |
gnarface | yea i wonder what went wrong, but i don't use it, i use exim4 and it works fine for me | 05:20 |
gnarface | i note that it does not deliver mail to root though | 05:21 |
se7en | I don't thnk I used procmail before wither | 05:21 |
gnarface | your spool | 05:21 |
gnarface | you have a root spool | 05:21 |
gnarface | and it's only writeable by root | 05:21 |
gnarface | so... that would mean your mail daemon would have to be running as root | 05:21 |
gnarface | or it couldn't write to it | 05:22 |
gnarface | did you check to see if mail is undeliverable to /var/spool/mail/se7en too, or did you only check mail to root? | 05:22 |
gnarface | ? | 05:24 |
se7en | I'm checking my local user's mail | 05:26 |
se7en | lines 1-16sh: 1: /usr/bin/procmail: Operation not permitted | 05:26 |
se7en | fetchmail: Error writing to MDA: Broken pipe | 05:26 |
gnarface | operation not permitted? | 05:27 |
gnarface | this isn't gonna turn out to be some problem because you have busybox installed instead of bash, is it? | 05:27 |
se7en | I do not have busybox | 05:27 |
se7en | The problem seems to be because I am torifying it | 05:28 |
gnarface | can you find out what pipe it was trying to write to? | 05:28 |
se7en | it is a .onion email IMAP | 05:28 |
se7en | I don't know how to find that out, gnarface. I am reading logs | 05:29 |
se7en | It's not outputting to where I set it to output | 05:30 |
se7en | set logfile /home/se7en/.fetchmail.log | 05:30 |
se7en | It seems | 05:31 |
se7en | that fetchmail is completly failing to call procmail period | 05:31 |
se7en | Procmail doesn't seem to be active at all | 05:31 |
agris | do Devuan package mirrors need to be on a dedicated IP? | 05:31 |
se7en | I'm going to try something unorthadox | 05:32 |
se7en | chown root:mail /usr/bin/procmail | 05:32 |
se7en | chmod -v 2755 /usr/bin/procmail | 05:33 |
se7en | Yeah, that fixed it | 05:33 |
se7en | So fundementally | 05:33 |
se7en | The problem was with how torsocks handles setuid | 05:33 |
onefang | On my mirror I have several domains on the one IP, not all of them related to Devuan. | 05:33 |
agris | ok | 05:34 |
_abc_ | Hi. Anyone using LADSPA plugin for auto level/compression/limiting volume with ascii or next devuan? I got rid of pulseaudio, using plain alsa now. I am willing to try the solutions shown in the link: | 10:54 |
_abc_ | https://alsa.opensrc.org/Ladspa_(plugin) | 10:54 |
_abc_ | Anyone else tried this? The goal is automatic audio level control, mainly due to youtube volume jumps between clips which are crazy (20dB seen) | 10:54 |
_abc_ | I guess asking these questions makes more sense in the evening (US TZ) when people are here hopefully. | 10:56 |
devu | Hello, i have problem with xfce4-terminal.It simply does not dispaly the output of w,who and users command.Any idea what is wrong?thanks | 21:18 |
furrywolf | it would be odd if a terminal program only broke the output of those commands. I'd suspect either broken/mismatched packages, or (much less likely) a rootkit. but, I don't know how to easily troubleshoot that. | 21:20 |
devu | furrywolf:it works in Xterm and Uxterm but xfce-terminal and mate-terminal nothing | 21:32 |
furrywolf | that's odd. could be a path issue or something weird. | 21:33 |
furrywolf | it works in xfce4-terminal here | 21:33 |
furrywolf | does which w show /usr/bin/w in both terminals? | 21:33 |
furrywolf | xfce4-terminal doesn't seem to start a login shell, while xterm does. | 21:34 |
furrywolf | so if the environment was broken when x started, xfce4-terminal would be using that broken environment, while xterm would log in again. | 21:35 |
furrywolf | have you done any major upgrades since last time you rebooted? | 21:35 |
furrywolf | I need to go load up my a/c service stuff and fix someone's car, so hopefully someone who knows more about this can help you... bbl. | 21:36 |
devu | furrywolf:thanks anyway | 21:40 |
telmich | good evening! I remember the nice atmosphere at the conferenece in Amsterdam. If anyone of you is interested in continuing the hacking atmosphere in Switzerland, we have just opened a hacking hotel and welcome similar minded people: https://hack.digitalglarus.ch/hacking-date-in-digital-glarus.html | 22:08 |
andy5995 | how do you use the experimental suite? Just do a regular install and then change all the instances of "ascii" to "experimental" in sources.list? | 22:39 |
fsmithred | yikes, no | 22:39 |
fsmithred | add a line for experimental | 22:39 |
fsmithred | anything you want to install from it, add '-t experimental' to the command | 22:39 |
fsmithred | there are only a few packages in experimental | 22:40 |
andy5995 | ok.. I should be able to handle that fsmithred .. thanks! | 22:40 |
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