| DocScrutinizer05 | furrywolf: I just read on #maemo (also somewhat OT there) thatfarcebook has other problems as well: false positives fromn "filters" that forbid posting references to a danish site about building a Delphi program. I think this all are pretty good arguments why you should think twice before using any such service where you are the product rather than the customer | 11:20 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | on topic: wikipedia Germany yesterday had a cover-page about notorious §11 §13 upload filter and copyright EU regulations which are once more on schedule to get turned into applicable law in a few days | 11:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on topic: https://www.change.org/p/stoppt-die-zensurmaschine-rettet-das-internet-uploadfilter-artikel13-saveyourinternet | 11:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (english) https://www.change.org/p/european-parliament-stop-the-censorship-machinery-save-the-internet | 11:24 |
| furrymcgee | devuan needs a systemd filter | 11:29 |
| KatolaZ | furrymcgee: uh? | 11:48 |
| furrymcgee | eu law is kind of difficult, the init topic is what I understand at least | 11:55 |
| furrymcgee | apropos init, hopefully there are debian developers who still care about it. please second a patch to this bug in debian-policy https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=853779 | 12:44 |
| golinux | furrymcgee: Debian and Devuan devs are already collaborating on sysvinit. | 16:38 |
| xrogaan | nice. | 17:22 |
| xrogaan | I have no clue how resolvconf associated with dnsmasq is supposed to work. I know that dnsmasq is getting its dns server list at the network initialisation. However, when starting the machine, that sometimes fails and dnsmasq doesn't build the list which forces me to reload /etc/init.d/networking | 17:23 |
| xrogaan | I also do not use the dns from dhcp, I have custom ones in /etc/network/interfaces | 17:24 |
| xrogaan | Maybe I should set them directly in dnsmasq instead. | 17:24 |
| gnarface | you should set them in /etc/resolv.conf and uninstall resolvconf | 17:25 |
| gnarface | then when you change dnsmasq, you will only have to restart dnsmasq | 17:25 |
| gnarface | if you are running a dhcp server and not using it, you should uninstall that too | 17:27 |
| gnarface | dhcp client* | 17:27 |
| xrogaan | I'm using it, it configure the local ip and all that stuff. I just don't want the ISP's dns servers. | 17:37 |
| xrogaan | By default, debian configure that from the dhcp stuff. | 17:38 |
| gnarface | well in that case, what you're supposed to do is configure the dhcp client to not mangle your resolv.conf | 17:38 |
| gnarface | that should be possible | 17:38 |
| xrogaan | right, and also the ntp stuff comes from dhcp by default. | 17:38 |
| gnarface | though a long time ago i remember having to change dhcp clients to get the right functionality, it was one of the ones in the repo | 17:38 |
| xrogaan | I removed these from the "request" in dhclient.conf: domain-name-servers, dhcp6-name-servers dhcp6.sntp-servers, ntp-servers | 17:40 |
| xrogaan | So resolv.conf should be alright. | 17:41 |
| gnarface | i remember having to create a template of it or something like that | 17:41 |
| gnarface | that might have been because i was changing locations actually though, now i'm not sure | 17:41 |
| xrogaan | Anyhow, for custom dns and ntp servers you need to remove some function from dhcp regardless of resolvconf or dnsmasq | 17:43 |
| xrogaan | functionalities* | 17:44 |
| KatolaZ | for custom dns `chattr +a /etc/resolv.conf` is enough | 17:44 |
| xrogaan | Naughty. | 17:45 |
| KatolaZ | uh? | 17:45 |
| KatolaZ | who said you need to be gentle with programs? | 17:45 |
| KatolaZ | it's much easier than fiddling with 3/4 different conf files | 17:46 |
| KatolaZ | and works *always* | 17:46 |
| xrogaan | KatolaZ: you really shouldn't do that though, if the file is being changed it means something is changing it. Finding the cause and eliminating it is, IMHO, proper. | 17:46 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: there is very little that happens on my machine for which I don't know what is causing it | 17:47 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 17:47 |
| xrogaan | That was one of the "solutions" given when I was searching why my dns always reverted to the ISP. But digging deeper it turned out to be the dhcp client being rogue. | 17:47 |
| xrogaan | Undocumented behavior and all. | 17:47 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: it's not "being rougue" | 17:47 |
| KatolaZ | it's just that you can use different dhclients | 17:48 |
| KatolaZ | and each of them has different config files | 17:48 |
| KatolaZ | this solution works for any of them | 17:48 |
| KatolaZ | YMMV | 17:48 |
| xrogaan | What I mean is that nowhere it is explain what the dhclient is doing to the local configuration. The user may try to configure a ntp client, and see it not being used for some reason and will have no idea as to why. dhcp seems unrelated to ntp right? | 17:50 |
| xrogaan | So machine configuration gets overridden by dhcp by default. | 17:51 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: I don't see how ntp is related to dhcp, sorry | 17:51 |
| xrogaan | Exactly my point | 17:51 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 17:51 |
| KatolaZ | no really | 17:51 |
| KatolaZ | how setting dns servers is related to ntp? | 17:52 |
| xrogaan | I don't know what kind of dhcp client is installed by default, but the /etc/dhcp/dhclient.conf has these in the "request" line: sntp-servers, ntp-servers | 17:52 |
| xrogaan | That tells the dhcp client to get the ntp servers from dhcp and set them for the machine. | 17:53 |
| xrogaan | If the user do not know that, and I assume most of them do not, they'll have no idea why when configuring their machine the settings changes. | 17:54 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: if users don't know, they should learn :) | 17:55 |
| xrogaan | But a undocumented behavior. | 17:55 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 17:55 |
| xrogaan | Sorry, I'm skipping words | 17:55 |
| xrogaan | It's an undocumented behavior, that is unless you already know how dhcp works you'll have no clue as to where to look. | 17:56 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: that's my point | 17:56 |
| KatolaZ | if you want to fiddle with config, you have to know/learn what to do | 17:57 |
| KatolaZ | there is no other way around that | 17:57 |
| xrogaan | If a software does something, it should be explain in the documentation. | 17:57 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: o_O | 17:57 |
| KatolaZ | are yoyu implying that before changing your ntp config you should know about all the daemons that can interact with it? | 17:58 |
| KatolaZ | I totallu agree | 17:58 |
| xrogaan | /usr/share/doc/isc-dhcp-client/ < no mention of what it does exists in that folder. | 17:58 |
| KatolaZ | if you don't, then you should not touch anything :) | 17:58 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: what it does is in the dhclient.conf file | 17:58 |
| KatolaZ | the options are explainet in dhcp-config(5) | 17:58 |
| KatolaZ | ~explained | 17:58 |
| xrogaan | I spent hours searching the issue before finding a lone message in a forum saying it's undocumented. | 17:58 |
| KatolaZ | O_o | 17:58 |
| KatolaZ | again | 17:59 |
| KatolaZ | what is undocumented? | 17:59 |
| xrogaan | <KatolaZ> xrogaan: I don't see how ntp is related to dhcp, sorry | 17:59 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: you were talking about setting DNS, right? | 17:59 |
| xrogaan | I don't see why I should learn dhcp in order to configure my ntp stuff. | 17:59 |
| KatolaZ | then you jumepd to NTP | 17:59 |
| KatolaZ | ... | 17:59 |
| gnarface | oh it's all coming back to me now | 18:00 |
| gnarface | there were a bunch of these proprietary dns extensions | 18:00 |
| gnarface | the default dhcp client had flags to not ask | 18:00 |
| KatolaZ | gnarface: ntp servers is not a dns extensions | 18:00 |
| gnarface | the microsoft dhcp servers would send the data even if you didn't ask | 18:00 |
| KatolaZ | it's a DHCP one | 18:00 |
| gnarface | then the default dhcp client would accept them and there was no way to stop it | 18:01 |
| gnarface | so i switched to the other dhcp client | 18:01 |
| xrogaan | The fucking dhcp client governs the DNS server, takes them from the router. At the same time, it governs the NTP servers. And that behavior isn't documented, ie. "if you want to set a custom dns/ntp here is what you should do". It's a total vacuum, the user is expected to know how dhcp works in order to set up their ntp client. | 18:01 |
| gnarface | which was much more complicated, but allowed me to do what i needed (which also involved some vpn stuff probably) | 18:01 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: you should know what dhcp does before running it | 18:01 |
| KatolaZ | if you don't, you accept the default behaviour | 18:01 |
| xrogaan | I don't have a choice, it's installed by default. | 18:01 |
| KatolaZ | sys administration is not a part-time activity where you can take one piece and forget the rest of the cake :) | 18:02 |
| xrogaan | Why is there any doc for the distro then? | 18:02 |
| gnarface | xrogaan: apt-cache search ^dhcp.*client | 18:02 |
| xrogaan | Get rid of the wiki and all that shit and let people learn everything on their own. | 18:02 |
| gnarface | xrogaan: just pick a different one and move on with your life | 18:02 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: you are missing the point, IMHO | 18:03 |
| Evilham | you can even pass SMTP and POP servers over DHCP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Host_Configuration_Protocol | 18:03 |
| xrogaan | I don't. | 18:03 |
| KatolaZ | you can pass EVERYTHING via dhcp | 18:03 |
| KatolaZ | even if you don't pass a dns server at all | 18:03 |
| Evilham | hehe, we were thinking the same KatolaZ | 18:04 |
| Evilham | in most cases, uses do want this kind of magic | 18:04 |
| KatolaZ | fiddling with system configuration requires knowing how the system works as a whole, or being ready to learn about it in the process | 18:04 |
| Evilham | and if you don't, it's up to you to disable all that | 18:04 |
| xrogaan | I don't care, the default dhclient configuration is not documented. It's a rogue behavior. | 18:04 |
| KatolaZ | exactly | 18:04 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: there is no "default" configuration | 18:05 |
| KatolaZ | this is what you are missing | 18:05 |
| KatolaZ | if you install the base system alone, you don't get a dhcp client at all | 18:05 |
| KatolaZ | you talk of Devuan as something that has a "default" | 18:06 |
| KatolaZ | while it has hundreds, if not thousands | 18:06 |
| KatolaZ | if you choose a different dhcp client, you will have another default behaviour | 18:06 |
| * Evilham sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/bsvYehyUwfpIbsKtxExzVdII > | 18:06 | |
| xrogaan | /etc/firefox-esr/firefox-esr.js < this is customized for debian | 18:07 |
| xrogaan | A distro, by nature, define how some software needs to behave. | 18:08 |
| xrogaan | So people can just install a package and have it working from the get go. | 18:08 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: have you used a debian distro before devuan? | 18:09 |
| KatolaZ | this is not SCO UNIX | 18:09 |
| KatolaZ | neither AIX | 18:09 |
| xrogaan | Somebody wrote that dhclient.conf, it didn't come from nowhere. | 18:09 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 18:09 |
| KatolaZ | what is misleading is that through tasksel you have what looks like a "default selection" of packages | 18:10 |
| KatolaZ | but that's a pretty recent thing | 18:10 |
| KatolaZ | the essence of debian-based distros has always been the ability to switch components at your will | 18:10 |
| xrogaan | beside the point | 18:11 |
| KatolaZ | there are at least 5/6 different dhclient implementations in debian | 18:11 |
| xrogaan | somebody wrote that dhclient.conf, behavior changed and now people tell you to chattr +a /etc/resolv.conf | 18:12 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: what changed when exactly? | 18:13 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 18:13 |
| xrogaan | That I don't know. | 18:13 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 18:13 |
| KatolaZ | xrogaan: by default, dhcp clients mess up with /etc/resolv.conf | 18:14 |
| KatolaZ | this is not new | 18:14 |
| KatolaZ | if you want to use any dhcp client *and* force your dns servers, either you fiddle with whatever is the config of the dhcp client you have chosen to use | 18:14 |
| KatolaZ | or you avoid resolv.conf from being written by the dhcp client | 18:15 |
| KatolaZ | the first option is not what most users normally want, especially if they move around different networks | 18:15 |
| KatolaZ | since most public networks impose local DNS servers | 18:16 |
| xrogaan | I don't care about any of that. | 18:16 |
| KatolaZ | great | 18:16 |
| Nematocyst | if your resolv.conf is getting clobbered by something, you need to figure out what is modifying it, and configure that properly. better than making it readonly, if only to eliminate unforseen issues. none of this is devuan related | 18:16 |
| xrogaan | Yeah, that's what I did. | 18:16 |
| KatolaZ | Nematocyst: there are cases when you know exactly what is clobbering your resolv.conf, and still you prefer to chattr +a /etc/resolv.conf | 18:17 |
| KatolaZ | which is what I do | 18:17 |
| xrogaan | I believe the behavior changed in jessie | 18:18 |
| KatolaZ | since chattr -a /etc/resolv.conf is much easier than remembering which option should be changed according to which dhclient is running on the current machine | 18:18 |
| KatolaZ | just a matter of preference | 18:18 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 18:18 |
| xrogaan | To have dhcp govern everything network. Again, debian's wiki doesn't say anything about that. | 18:18 |
| Evilham | I just ran man interfaces | 18:20 |
| Evilham | and it talks about this | 18:21 |
| Evilham | it's no hidden information, it may be surprising if you are not familiar with it, but that's pretty much how it works, you are free not to use DHCP, IIRC the installer asks if you want to use it or not | 18:21 |
| xrogaan | https://wiki.debian.org/DHCP_Client do not | 18:21 |
| Evilham | and most people do want that | 18:21 |
| emdete | i use a handcrafted script to replace `/sbin/resolvconf` to fire the current nameserver into dnsmasq via dbus. this works quite good | 18:22 |
| KatolaZ | yeah emdete | 18:22 |
| KatolaZ | and there are probably one hundred or more other custom solutions around :) | 18:22 |
| Evilham | it does say "consult man interfaces" and it assumes you know how DHCP works, what is it *exactly* that you want? :-D | 18:24 |
| KatolaZ | and it also says "There are different DHCP client packages around. The default for Debian seems to be dhcp-client." | 18:24 |
| Evilham | the default behaviour is to ask on installation, you are free to setup the network manually at that stage, you can override everything, you can do very fancy things (e.g. IIRC opennebula does very ugly things that work) | 18:24 |
| xrogaan | Alright, found the answer that helped me figure out NTP https://serverfault.com/questions/329596/how-to-override-the-ntp-information-sent-by-dhcp-in-debian/785797#785797 | 18:26 |
| xrogaan | Important part: "This is hard to debug if not known because the service configuration in '/etc/ntp.conf' is left untouched and is correct on visual inspection. However it is actually ignored and overridden stealthy." | 18:27 |
| xrogaan | "stealthy" is the problem here. It shouldn't behave that way. | 18:28 |
| xrogaan | > "This is all undocumented, unexpected and hard to debug behavior. That caused me quite the headache today which is why I am documenting this in here." | 18:29 |
| Evilham | https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/isc-dhcp-client/dhclient-script.8.en.html | 18:29 |
| xrogaan | If I have a ntp.conf, I expect my system to use it. But it doesn't. | 18:31 |
| xrogaan | Why? The fuck knows. | 18:31 |
| unixman | WTH thought ignoring /etc/ntp.conf is a good idea? That's crap. | 18:31 |
| KatolaZ | unixman: ntp.conf is the configuration for ntp *serverrs* | 18:33 |
| KatolaZ | the problem here is with an ntp *client* | 18:33 |
| unixman | If'n I thinked it were a gud idear to run ntpd, then nothing else should touch that. | 18:33 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 18:34 |
| unixman | So, ntpdate? | 18:34 |
| KatolaZ | again, /etc/ntp.conf is the conf for ntp *server* | 18:34 |
| KatolaZ | not ntp *client* | 18:34 |
| KatolaZ | -_- | 18:34 |
| unixman | Which client? | 18:34 |
| KatolaZ | I am off | 18:35 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 18:35 |
| KatolaZ | o/ | 18:35 |
| unixman | Also, ntpd is run often just to set the clocks on servers, not provide a service. | 18:35 |
| KatolaZ | unixman: and, you don't run dhclient on a server, normally, right? | 18:36 |
| gnarface | ntpd is both the server and the client | 18:36 |
| gnarface | like quake3 | 18:36 |
| KatolaZ | yes gnarface, but the problem is with the ntp client getting servers set via dhcp | 18:37 |
| unixman | So, why was /etc/ntp.conf mentioned? I guess I need to read futher back in the scrollback. | 18:37 |
| gnarface | unixman: xrogaan is getting stuff from his dhcp server he doesn't want | 18:38 |
| gnarface | unixman: (and he doesn't control it) | 18:38 |
| unixman | Yeah, I see that now. | 18:38 |
| unixman | I just saw "<xrogaan> Alright, found the answer that helped me figure out NTP ..." and didn't go back far enough. Mea culpa. | 18:39 |
| Evilham | <KatolaZ "unixman: and, you don't run dhcl"> open nebula abuses dhcp to setup VMs IIRC | 18:39 |
| Evilham | if you have a big enough physical network, you also want that and SLAAC to work | 18:39 |
| Evilham | or else you turn crazy :-D | 18:40 |
| KatolaZ | yeah I know Evilham | 18:40 |
| xrogaan | I mean, if the dhcp script dropped a line in the logs saying "overriding ntp.conf", it would also been fine. | 18:47 |
| xrogaan | It's kind of why we have logs. | 18:48 |
| gnarface | well | 18:48 |
| gnarface | you should know that man pages are your friends | 18:48 |
| gnarface | and there is every possibility that it might have done that, if the logging verbosity was turned up enough | 18:48 |
| gnarface | i don't know, so i know you don't either | 18:49 |
| gnarface | and fyi the daemons all log to /var/log/daemon.log by default | 18:49 |
| xrogaan | how do you turn up the verbosity of ntp.conf being ignored? | 18:49 |
| gnarface | the dhcp daemon | 18:50 |
| xrogaan | if I know it's the dhcp daemon, I don't need to logs | 18:50 |
| unixman | It's probably a matter of knowing that DHCP can do that, then being suspicious enough to look into it. However, in my company everyone suspects DNS first, which is rarely the problem, and sends e-mail to the DNS admin (me) about totally unrelated problems. :) | 18:53 |
| therion23 | before i make a fool of myself, i'd better ask - was installing ascii on a Pi Zero and it does not see the internal wlan interface .. what am i missing? | 19:04 |
| ErRandir | I may be wrong but AFAIK the Zero W has wireless, the plain Zero does not | 20:31 |
| therion23 | ErRandir: absolutely correct .. and it's that wireless i need to "pick up" so to speak | 22:53 |
| therion23 | be it a loadable overlay or whatnot | 22:53 |
| therion23 | it is probably something trivial, just cannot think of what it possibly can be, you know | 22:55 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!