| Centurion_Dan | esr has given us much, and now maybe a little of our work, inspired by his, will give him a return on his investment ;-) | 01:41 |
|---|---|---|
| golinux | Full-circle | 01:43 |
| Xenguy | May it be unbroken | 02:40 |
| * esr blushes | 05:56 | |
| esr | So, I finall fixed my experimental Devuan installation when a hacjing buddt of mune noticed that it needed the proprietary Radeon blobs to crank a 2K display. | 05:57 |
| esr | Now I can consider using it for production. | 05:58 |
| golinux | esr: That's great news! | 06:16 |
| golinux | Welcome aboard | 06:17 |
| esr | golinux: I'm runmning Devuan on a fanless Chinese compute brick caklled a Jetway. I have anothe Jetway running Uvbuntu that's my mailserver/bastion host - the medium turm plan is to configure the Devuan brick for that job, swaopi ut in, and then scrunb the old mailserver and Devuanize it. | 06:19 |
| esr | Excuse my typos. | 06:19 |
| furrywolf | you don't sound like the esr I know... | 06:19 |
| esr | My main machine, the Great Beast, probably won't migrate until the next hardware upgrade. | 06:20 |
| esr | furrywolf: I'm, not awqare that I know anyone named furrywolf, so that sort of make s sense. | 06:21 |
| furrywolf | lol, I played with the fetchmail logo about two decades ago. don't think we've talked otherwise. glad to see you're a devuan user. :) | 06:23 |
| esr | furrywolf: Well, Devuan-curious anway. It's got rough edges. | 06:24 |
| golinux | Linux always has rough edges. | 06:26 |
| golinux | Especially if you want to do it your way | 06:26 |
| golinux | There is no one-size-fits-all | 06:27 |
| furrywolf | of course there is. it's called systemd. just ask them. :P | 06:28 |
| furrywolf | or anything freedesktop | 06:28 |
| esr | No, but Mint and Ubunti (whatever their other failings) do a better job of covering a briod range of use cases. You guys may decide that's not important, but it's true. | 06:29 |
| golinux | It's not us. | 06:30 |
| esr | ? | 06:30 |
| golinux | I played with ubuntu a decade ago and it was always broken. | 06:30 |
| furrywolf | bbl, wolfy bedtime | 06:31 |
| golinux | That drove me to debian squeeze which was quite stable. Then wheezy. Then the wheels fell off. | 06:31 |
| esr | It has improved freeatly since. I run it on the Beast and my latop. Looking to get away from it now because of systemd, but I also know what I'll be giving up when I do that. | 06:31 |
| golinux | You'll be gaining freedom not losing | 06:32 |
| golinux | Devuan has been solid as a rock on my desktop. | 06:33 |
| golinux | My daily driver is still jessie. | 06:33 |
| golinux | But we all have our use cases | 06:34 |
| Digit | rawr. cant comment on peertube videos for some reason. https://peertube3.cpy.re/videos/watch/c378f2e9-8c50-44a4-98ce-ed12ccafd44b wanted to tell them "or #devuan as its #debian #withoutsystemd and not splitter" or some such | 06:34 |
| Digit | so instead i just moaned that in here. n_n maybe someone else will mention it. | 06:35 |
| esr | Example: On installation, Ubuntu asks if you want to load proprietary firmware for things like the Radeon chip in my Jetway brick. Being able to to say yes to that would have saved me a bunch of troubleshooting time. Sure, I'd like for proprietary blobs to go away, but doctrinal purity on Devuan's part does nothing to advance that; the manufacturers don't give a crap about a market sliver as small as us. | 06:38 |
| esr | To beat proprietary crap you have to outcompete it, not just hold your nose and virtue-signal. | 06:38 |
| golinux | esr: Those blobs are available on the -live disks and it's really pissed some people off. | 06:42 |
| * golinux goes to find the link | 06:42 | |
| golinux | https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=12682#p12682 | 06:44 |
| esr | golinux: Well, you can tell them ESR is unimpressed with their pissedness. If you want to obsolesce proprietary software, don't preteend it isn't handling important jobs. *Do better.* And if yoy can't so better, stop pretending that virtue-signalling about your purity is going to help. | 06:45 |
| esr | s/so better/do better/ | 06:46 |
| golinux | I'm not the one to debate that with you. I don't have need for proprietary stuff but others do. The explanation of how non-free is available in Devuan is pretty clear.in that link is pretty clear. | 06:51 |
| golinux | We have talked about doing a devuan-libre at some point for those who want it. | 06:52 |
| golinux | Sorry for the muddled sentence. | 06:52 |
| golinux | Your input of how we can make devuan better is welcome. You have a unique perspective that we can learn from. | 06:54 |
| esr | golinux: Thanks. | 06:54 |
| golinux | Feel free to join the forum and voice your opinion there. | 06:55 |
| esr | The things I've run into so far are mostly weirdnesses in the installer where a way forward isn't readily discoverable. | 06:55 |
| esr | Hit one of those pretty hard trying to install on an Intel NUC. That failed; I had to do Mint 19 instead. | 06:56 |
| esr | Which forum? | 06:56 |
| golinux | Those option are available with an expert install (or so I've heard - I've been doing -live installs with the refractainstaller for years). | 06:57 |
| golinux | dev1galaxy.org | 06:57 |
| golinux | This is the thread with a non-free debate: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=12682#p12682 | 06:58 |
| golinux | There are others in there too. It's a recurring theme | 06:59 |
| esr | I just registered. | 07:00 |
| esr | golinux: So you don't recommend the "classic" image? | 07:01 |
| golinux | Oh I'm just lazy | 07:01 |
| golinux | Refractainstaller takes 10 minutes | 07:01 |
| golinux | Just rsyncs the running system | 07:02 |
| esr | Lazy is OK. I like installers that allow laziness. | 07:02 |
| golinux | Non-free is also discussed in the release notes. | 07:02 |
| golinux | https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt | 07:03 |
| golinux | ### Non-free firmware is about half way down the page. | 07:03 |
| golinux | I hadn't used the d-1 in many years till I installed the beowuld test iso a few days ago. | 07:04 |
| golinux | That would be d-i | 07:04 |
| esr | golinux: See, that's all very well but it doesn't apply to the classic installer the download site encourages people to use. | 07:04 |
| esr | golinux: Furtermote I'd say having multiple install images (as oppose to one with good customization options) is part of the problem, not part of the solution. | 07:05 |
| golinux | Actually the d-i is 3rd on the list. | 07:06 |
| golinux | desktop-live/ 06-Jun-2018 23:47 - | 07:06 |
| golinux | embedded/ 06-Jun-2018 11:28 - | 07:06 |
| golinux | installer-iso/ 06-Jun-2018 18:59 - | 07:06 |
| golinux | minimal-live/ 06-Jun-2018 15:33 - | 07:06 |
| golinux | virtual/ | 07:06 |
| esr | Yeah, I'kll go grie about this on the forum. That's *way* too many distinct images. | 07:07 |
| golinux | Our user-base is diverse. | 07:07 |
| esr | Yes? So what? | 07:08 |
| golinux | Those options provide C-H-O-I-C-E | 07:08 |
| esr | If you're not smart enough to write a oolymorphic single installer what are you doing in this game? | 07:08 |
| esr | *polymorphic | 07:08 |
| golinux | Maybe you'd like to take on that task? | 07:09 |
| esr | Not intil I'm more sure I'm going to fully commit my house systems. | 07:09 |
| golinux | We could use more hands on deck. | 07:09 |
| esr | I get it. | 07:10 |
| golinux | Fair enough. | 07:10 |
| golinux | Just for giggles try the desktop-live installer | 07:10 |
| esr | Maybe when I put the third Jtway back together, it's in poeces on my bench right now. | 07:12 |
| golinux | I'm going to head to bed . . . or at least try to. ttyl | 07:23 |
| KatolaZ | esr: what's the matter? | 08:08 |
| KatolaZ | there are not that many installers indeed | 08:14 |
| KatolaZ | since virtual, minimal-live, embedded, and desktop-live come from the same tool (devuan-sdk) | 08:14 |
| KatolaZ | so there are basically two main flavours | 08:14 |
| KatolaZ | the classical installer (under installer-iso) | 08:14 |
| KatolaZ | and different kinds of live or ready-to-boot images | 08:15 |
| devoid_ | hello esr, how are you doing today? | 08:19 |
| devoid_ | i dont want to hear it my fellow heterosexual friend | 08:23 |
| devoid_ | you are a motherfucking nice heterosexual man for knowing how to join a channel | 08:23 |
| KatolaZ | devoid_: o_O | 08:25 |
| esr | KatolaZ: It doesn't matter how many installers *you* think there are in some genetic sense. It matters how many you present as possibilities to a user. More = moe confusion and uncertainty, and more ways for them to have inconsstent behavior. When you find yourself saying "basically two main flavors" you are already in the land of too many. | 12:09 |
| * Humpelstilzchen would like to replace installers with init daemons in the above sentence.. | 12:14 | |
| Hurgotron | Humpelstilzchen: AFAICT, Devuan doesn't have too much confusing choice when it comes to init deamons. :) | 12:16 |
| esr | Hurgotron: A;so, the case isn't parallel because it's not really that difficult to write a polymorphic installer that covers all use cases by asking you to select an installation type. The paralle, move with init daemons would be a lot more difficult and dubious. | 12:18 |
| Hurgotron | esr: Understood. But if you have a polymorphic installer that covers all use cases, should it get most packages ofer the net, or be self-contained? One main difference of the various installers seems to be their size. | 12:21 |
| Humpelstilzchen | Hurgotron: to be honest, I have not tried alternatives in a long time, but the last time I tried e.g. runit and the others I was confused by the amount of choices | 12:23 |
| Hurgotron | Humpelstilzchen: runit doesn't replace initd, just the startup scripts, AFAIK. | 12:24 |
| Humpelstilzchen | Hurgotron: at least in the past there were two versions, one integrated with sysv, one did replace /sbin/init | 12:26 |
| armin | http://smarden.org/runit/runit-init.8.html | 12:32 |
| armin | it does replace /sbin/init | 12:32 |
| Hurgotron | Indeed, I just checked. Weird. sysv init is supposed to be minimal, and why replace? NIH? | 12:33 |
| armin | well runit is designed to be minimal, too | 12:33 |
| armin | it just works a bit differently, and there's no problem with that i think | 12:33 |
| esr | Hurgotron: I don't see that size is an issue these days. Large thumb drives are cheap. | 12:36 |
| * esr is still rather a fan of upstart | 12:37 | |
| armin | i love the simplicity of runit to be honest | 12:37 |
| djph | speaking of "large" drives -- I found a 128MB (!!!) microsd in an adapter yesterday when going through a box of backups from college that I'm finally getting rid of | 12:37 |
| esr | aesin_: I think that is a reasonable position. | 12:37 |
| esr | armin: ^ | 12:38 |
| Hurgotron | I'm mostly indifferent to init systems as long as they don't get in my way. Ubuntu was ok. | 12:39 |
| djph | upstart was kind of nice -- but jarring when it first came out, beacuse I was still really bad | 12:39 |
| armin | esr: it's super understandable and hence very hacker friendly. the ps output is sane, the shell scripts you write to actually start your daemon is often just a 5 liner or so, and stopping the service is done by some very trivial runit programs that it comes with. also it works 100% just like DJBs good old daemon tools and you can just use runit in addition to your current init system (e.g. simply not start it | 12:40 |
| armin | by the kernel but rather via an upstart job or init script or whatever you choose) | 12:40 |
| esr | djph: I mut have only seen later versions. I liked the concept of no runlevels, instead traversing a dependency tree. | 12:40 |
| armin | i have to admit being quite a fan of runit :D | 12:40 |
| djph | I mean, I think I had played with fedora (core) 2/3 for a bit, but kept coming across "do xyz on ubuntu" ... so I switched to ubuntu uhh... whatever was back then | 12:41 |
| armin | the beauty of devuan is that you get the simplicity of ubuntu without the mind squashing of systemd | 12:41 |
| armin | :) | 12:41 |
| armin | in the beginning i had concerns if devuan would ever become a mature and usable desktop operating system. my concerns couldn't have been any more wrong. it totally did. | 12:42 |
| armin | <3 devuan | 12:42 |
| armin | yesterday me and a friend watched a talk by lennart poettering on youtube in 1.25x speed. (systemd in 2018) | 12:43 |
| armin | the recursion that guy mentally does (constantly) is just infinite | 12:43 |
| armin | you can even track his yak shaving much better at 1.25x speed | 12:44 |
| esr | armin: Installation is still pretty user-hostile, though. I plan on uttering an extended rant about how and wiy on either Galaxy or my blog. | 12:44 |
| armin | esr: why do you think so? e.g. what exactly is user-hostile for you? | 12:44 |
| armin | esr: off-topic: finding an ibm spacesaver tenkeyless keyboard in ISO is almost impossible... :/ | 12:45 |
| esr | armin: Too many installation images, for a start - they have inconstent behaviors. There should be only one. | 12:46 |
| armin | esr: oh, very good point. there's some very minimalistic one though... | 12:46 |
| esr | With option selects. | 12:46 |
| r3boot | Ghe, and here I was, thinking that devuan was for and by UNIX admins, who know how to figure out an init system ;+ (j/k) | 12:46 |
| armin | esr: i hate that on the starting page you approach with a graphical webbrowser just see jessie and ascii on the page and only see that ascii is the 2.0.0 version when clicking on them. | 12:47 |
| KatolaZ | esr: as a matter of fact, all the install images get used :) | 12:47 |
| esr | I also gut bt by the purity fetish. Some of my hardware needs Radeon firmware blobs and the Cllassic installer doesn't offer to install those - you have to dig into the Release Notes to learn that. Bzzt! Crash landing! | 12:48 |
| r3boot | (or that people know that both ubuntu and devuan are derivatives of debian ;P) | 12:48 |
| KatolaZ | esr: the classical installer has all the non-free firmware available | 12:48 |
| KatolaZ | if anything is missing just shout | 12:48 |
| armin | non-free is meh, you're approaching breakage land there | 12:48 |
| KatolaZ | and the live images have non-free firmware available as well | 12:49 |
| esr | KatolaZ: I did see it offer when I went through the standard install. | 12:49 |
| KatolaZ | yep | 12:49 |
| esr | did *not* | 12:49 |
| esr | Sorry. | 12:49 |
| KatolaZ | uh | 12:49 |
| KatolaZ | ? | 12:49 |
| esr | My typo. | 12:49 |
| KatolaZ | is the firmware in Debian/Devuan repos? | 12:49 |
| KatolaZ | oh | 12:50 |
| KatolaZ | you mean the x11-drivers for radeon | 12:50 |
| esr | I mean the Classic insaller didn't offer me the blobs when I went through a standard install. | 12:50 |
| esr | KatolaZ: Yes. | 12:50 |
| KatolaZ | yeah | 12:50 |
| KatolaZ | this is not Ubuntu ;) | 12:50 |
| KatolaZ | or Mint | 12:50 |
| gnarface | (neither of whose "polymorphic" installers cover every hardware type that all the devuan ones do anyway) | 12:50 |
| esr | Well, in that fespect it should be. | 12:51 |
| KatolaZ | well, that's not the mission of Devuan | 12:51 |
| KatolaZ | the mission is to have a Debian without systemd | 12:51 |
| KatolaZ | not an Ubuntu without systemd :) | 12:51 |
| r3boot | Debian comes with those blob drivers, why doesnt devuan? :) | 12:51 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: debian does not offer to install them at install time | 12:51 |
| KatolaZ | Devuan has them in the repo as well | 12:51 |
| KatolaZ | (they actually come straight from Debian) | 12:52 |
| r3boot | Ah, check, missed that detail | 12:52 |
| esr | So, that's just stupid. | 12:52 |
| KatolaZ | yeah, the difference is in the details... | 12:52 |
| KatolaZ | no esr | 12:52 |
| r3boot | esr: mja, that's what you get with floss distro's. The design goal is more blob-free then having a working desktop | 12:52 |
| KatolaZ | is just that we don't have enough developers to cater for all the possible use cases | 12:52 |
| r3boot | esr: it's possible, but you have to work around it | 12:52 |
| esr | "The design goal is more blob-free then having a working desktop" = "We crave irrelevance and failure" | 12:53 |
| armin | esr: it's a binary blob anyways, why should devuan include binary blobs? | 12:53 |
| r3boot | esr: look, you /chose/ to use devuan, so deal with their design goals ;) | 12:53 |
| KatolaZ | esr: where did you read |"the design goal is more blob-free?" | 12:54 |
| r3boot | esr: if you want a working desktop, use ubuntu, mint, osx or windows or so | 12:54 |
| KatolaZ | that's not the Devuan goal | 12:54 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: I wrote that. | 12:54 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 12:54 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: oh, but you said you had not even installed Devuan, and now you know about its goals :D | 12:54 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: kinda, yeah, since I'm following quite some distro's | 12:55 |
| esr | r3boot: I can unchoose because I think the design goals are wrong. | 12:55 |
| KatolaZ | the design goal of Devuan is to have a debian without systemd | 12:55 |
| KatolaZ | that's it | 12:55 |
| KatolaZ | as easy as that | 12:55 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: please do not set goals to others | 12:55 |
| KatolaZ | unless you are working towards achieving them | 12:55 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 12:55 |
| KatolaZ | esr: fine, you don't have to love Devuan | 12:56 |
| KatolaZ | noone has | 12:56 |
| KatolaZ | or must | 12:56 |
| KatolaZ | the design goals are clear: debian without systemd and with alternatives available | 12:56 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: you mean that devuan /does/ have working desktops as a design goal? | 12:56 |
| r3boot | ah, here, see | 12:56 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: you should not assume anything | 12:56 |
| r3boot | I dont | 12:57 |
| KatolaZ | you should just read on http://devuan.org | 12:57 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: devuan is striving to have working desktops as well | 12:57 |
| KatolaZ | and in fact ascii does have 5 working desktops | 12:57 |
| KatolaZ | without systemd | 12:57 |
| djph | I really gotta put ascii back on the daily driver -- it broke a few things while it was unstable, so I had to move to something else for a while | 12:58 |
| r3boot | that implies binary blobs, and preferrably on the installation phase, since having a working desktop takes quite a bit more effort then having a a | 12:58 |
| KatolaZ | (where "working" means having session-related stuff working) | 12:58 |
| r3boot | *systemd free debian | 12:58 |
| r3boot | But I think we have different ideas of a working desktop | 12:58 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: you can define "works" as you like | 12:58 |
| KatolaZ | if you want that to happen in Devuan, the easiste way is to help out | 12:58 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 12:58 |
| KatolaZ | ~easiest | 12:58 |
| djph | I found XFCE to be quite nice when I needed it. Although, I have to remember to fix the runlevels. | 13:00 |
| r3boot | I am here for giving support, not helping you out with developing devuan. I have talked with jaromil enough about the benefits and I've got a warm heart towards the developers, but I'm not some kind of noob who does not know how disto's work, and what needs to be done to get a *modern* box to work as a competitive desktop. | 13:00 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: knowing is not enough :) | 13:01 |
| KatolaZ | "doing" is actually needed | 13:01 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 13:01 |
| KatolaZ | you know what I mean | 13:01 |
| r3boot | Mja, if I'm going to spend time on development (have worked on gentoo, arch, debian, centos, rh and suse on the distro level), it needs to be worth my while as well, and for me debian-without-systemd is not a productive way of building desktops. As a server, it will likely work out just fine (but it cannot compete with RH for instance), but as a desktop, I'm just not seeing that happen anytime soon | 13:03 |
| djph | so then stick with Debian | 13:04 |
| r3boot | while I would *love* to see that happen, so instead of just blanketly ignoring devuan, I'm spending my time helping out beginners to use linux/devuan | 13:04 |
| r3boot | djph: that attitude does not help as well ;) | 13:04 |
| * esr agrees with r3boot | 13:05 | |
| djph | well, if you want systemd-on-the-desktop ... or did I misunderstand that statement? | 13:05 |
| r3boot | you mis-interpreted me, indeed | 13:05 |
| esr | djph: You did. | 13:05 |
| r3boot | djph: I want devuan to be a *competitive* desktop. Competitive to Arch, OSX and Windows | 13:06 |
| djph | esr: /me goes to refill coffee | 13:06 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: great. We don't have enough man-power atm to become a major desktop distro | 13:06 |
| esr | I think r3boot is arguiing that if you want users, you need to have an aim more like "Ubuntu without systemd". | 13:06 |
| esr | Ah, I se I was correct. | 13:06 |
| r3boot | if it's going to be yet another linux desktop, with the same old boring non-accelerated apps, well, you might as well use any other distro or BSD for that matter | 13:06 |
| KatolaZ | according to the well-informed, Devuan had to be dead 4 years ago already | 13:06 |
| gnarface | lol yea i heard it only has a tiny fraction of the packages that debian does anyway :-p | 13:07 |
| gnarface | who would switch to a micro-distro?? | 13:07 |
| gnarface | i'm sorry, i'll stop | 13:07 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: to my surprise, it's still working, and again, I was talking with Jaromil last summer about this, and there is enough drive behind it, but some big steps need to be taken to solidify it's position among the other systemd-based distro's | 13:08 |
| r3boot | (drive + money, btw) | 13:08 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: drive == developers interested in developing for the desktop | 13:08 |
| KatolaZ | so far devuan is a voluntary effort | 13:08 |
| KatolaZ | totally voluntary | 13:08 |
| r3boot | like most other distro's, yeah | 13:08 |
| KatolaZ | Ubuntu got there with a feew dozens developers | 13:08 |
| KatolaZ | dedicated just to transform debian into a desktop distro | 13:09 |
| r3boot | And guess what the 2nd most popular server distro is? :) | 13:09 |
| KatolaZ | we don't have a few dozens developers | 13:09 |
| Kohlrabi | I'd love to see less fracturing of the "Linux world", and more combined effort, the systemd nonsense has been an evil schism | 13:09 |
| r3boot | so how about working on PR then? | 13:09 |
| esr | I want to be able to put a systemd-less Linux on my wife's productioj desktop. I couldn't - I had to got to Mint 19. | 13:09 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: because PR does not solve the problems on the desktop side alone | 13:10 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: imho, it does not help that devuan has taken such a political stance against systemd. In doing so, it took on the risk of alienating a lot of developers | 13:10 |
| KatolaZ | IMHO | 13:10 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 13:10 |
| Kohlrabi | We should focus our efforts on setting up angry feminists against Poettering | 13:10 |
| r3boot | it's part of a much bigger plan around building distro's | 13:10 |
| esr | I'm OKJ with being anti-systemd. | 13:10 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: and what should Devuan do instead? | 13:10 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 13:10 |
| esr | I'm not OK with being user-hostile. | 13:10 |
| KatolaZ | Devuan was born exactly as a response to the systemd avalanche | 13:10 |
| esr | KatolaZ: Yeah, I'm not with r3boot on that part. | 13:11 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: be more open to the developer community. Be more welcome to new users. Embrace new users. Get a huge usebase. Get populair and neutral enough that devs *want* to help developing | 13:11 |
| KatolaZ | esr: I am not OK with user-hostile either, but user-friendly requires much more effort and we don't have that energy | 13:11 |
| KatolaZ | the rest follows | 13:11 |
| KatolaZ | oh r3boot | 13:11 |
| KatolaZ | I see :) | 13:11 |
| Kohlrabi | r3boot: Developing Devuan basically means writing more and more patches to upstream stuff depending on systemd and friends? | 13:11 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: people have been pretty hostile to me just because I'm neutral wrt systemd, just to give an example ;) | 13:12 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: not me for sure | 13:12 |
| r3boot | I know, not putting any blame on you for sure | 13:12 |
| KatolaZ | but you have also said that you are not interesting to help with devuan development, if I understood you correctly | 13:12 |
| r3boot | at this moment, yes | 13:12 |
| KatolaZ | ok | 13:13 |
| KatolaZ | fine | 13:13 |
| r3boot | but I've been monitoring devuan a bit more closely since just a month or so, so maybe my attitude will change, dont know yet | 13:13 |
| KatolaZ | when you are, just shout | 13:13 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 13:13 |
| r3boot | it'll kind of depends how I 'feel' in this community :) | 13:13 |
| r3boot | oh, thnx :) | 13:13 |
| KatolaZ | I have learned that chatting is cheap and easy, while getting stuff done without driving the users crazy require actual work and dedication | 13:14 |
| KatolaZ | I am not saying opinions are not important | 13:14 |
| KatolaZ | quite the opposite | 13:14 |
| r3boot | I agree with you on that. That's also why I'm trying to help out with support here | 13:14 |
| KatolaZ | I am just saying that opinions become changes only if somebody embraces them and does something in that direction | 13:14 |
| esr | Right, I too would need to believe thee's interest in being more friendly to new users before I'd consider putting time into Devuan development. | 13:14 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: I see what you mean there | 13:15 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot, esr: I am normally very direct and honest, with the risk of appearing harsh | 13:15 |
| KatolaZ | but this is how things work. unfortunately | 13:15 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: you're not that bad tbh :) I've met much worse | 13:15 |
| KatolaZ | the mission of devuan so far has been to *exist* | 13:16 |
| esr | indeed he isn't. | 13:16 |
| KatolaZ | against all odds | 13:16 |
| KatolaZ | until 6 months ago we had put out only one release in about 3.5 years | 13:16 |
| KatolaZ | now we have 2 of them out | 13:17 |
| KatolaZ | and actively working on the third one | 13:17 |
| r3boot | Anyway. esr, if you want to get your radeon card to work, install in text-only mode, and install the drivers afterwards | 13:17 |
| esr | KatolaZ: That's another problem I hit. Your kernel is so old that it couldn't see the NIC in my wife's Intel NUC. | 13:17 |
| r3boot | KatolaZ: how big is the development team btw? | 13:17 |
| KatolaZ | esr: just install the 4.18 from backports | 13:18 |
| KatolaZ | r3boot: about a dozen people | 13:18 |
| KatolaZ | more or less | 13:18 |
| r3boot | Oh, not too shabby | 13:18 |
| KatolaZ | https://devuan.org/os/team/ | 13:18 |
| r3boot | Hey, I recognize multiple names there.. Hi :) | 13:19 |
| KatolaZ | esr: I know it's not an answer for a newbie, but still, it's doable | 13:19 |
| esr | KatolaZ: Dude, *How was I supposed to know to do that?* <Perform arechcane ritual involving sacrificing a goat at midnight> is never a good answer to an installation problem. | 13:19 |
| KatolaZ | esr: it's just a line to add to sources.list, not a about sacrificing a goat :P | 13:20 |
| KatolaZ | (unless you use some arcane editor to do that, admittedly :P) | 13:20 |
| r3boot | .. must be nano .. ;+ | 13:20 |
| KatolaZ | indeed | 13:20 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 13:20 |
| esr | *grumble* You appear to be missing the point. | 13:20 |
| KatolaZ | esr: I totally understand your point | 13:20 |
| KatolaZ | but you don't seem to be able to get mine :) | 13:21 |
| r3boot | esr: you cannot expect volunteers to fully cater for your needs. Not without you actively volunteering to get your things in there. | 13:21 |
| Kohlrabi | Isn't it common knowledge to not install Debian stable when youu have semi-current hardware? | 13:21 |
| KatolaZ | there is a good community of Devuan users on dev1galaxy.org and here, that is very helpful with newcomers | 13:21 |
| esr | r3boot: Oh, I get that. But... | 13:21 |
| r3boot | and what you need to do to get the radeon card to work is really not rocket science, but basic debian-distro knowledge | 13:21 |
| KatolaZ | (I guess) | 13:21 |
| Kohlrabi | Same goes for Devuan I guess | 13:21 |
| KatolaZ | esr: most of the user-friendly stuff relies on the shoulders of the Devuan community | 13:22 |
| KatolaZ | let's say it is like it was in the Linux world maybe 15 years ago | 13:22 |
| esr | ...installation s a special case. If you don't mak e that really frictionless it is highjly unlikely that you'll grow the user- and support-base to solve your other scaling problems. | 13:23 |
| KatolaZ | when the community around a distro was the main point of reference for user problems | 13:23 |
| KatolaZ | esr: I know, but I can't do more than I am doing now for Devuan | 13:23 |
| KatolaZ | you won't believe that, but I know the theory very well :) | 13:24 |
| KatolaZ | I hear you, but the only way out is to have people working on that | 13:24 |
| KatolaZ | in this respect, some of the derivates have done a pretty good job | 13:25 |
| KatolaZ | (i.e., in careting for specific desktop needs) | 13:25 |
| esr | I don't think getting it right would necessarily involve a lot of effort. I'm arguing, rather, for a shift in proorities. More attention to newbie issues. | 13:25 |
| Kohlrabi | KatolaZ: Isn't it possible to offer Beowulf images for users with newer hardware? | 13:26 |
| KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: ? | 13:26 |
| r3boot | esr: getting an idiot proof distro is really, really hard to do, and requires a lot of work. At the point where devuan is right now, I get the feeling that they are still dealing with the fallout that happened after the rest of the linux world moved to systemd, (think elogind for instance) | 13:26 |
| KatolaZ | esr: I really hope we will be able to get there | 13:26 |
| Kohlrabi | KatolaZ: From what I gathered esr complained that his NIC was not detected because of old kernel | 13:26 |
| esr | That waas one problem, yess. | 13:27 |
| Kohlrabi | So usually if you have new H you install testing | 13:27 |
| Kohlrabi | Instead of stable | 13:27 |
| KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: you could possibly use a beowulf mini-iso, but that's even more bare-bone than the netinst, atm | 13:27 |
| KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: in testing session0-management is not working yet | 13:27 |
| KatolaZ | due to problems with elogind + policykit | 13:27 |
| Kohlrabi | KatolaZ: Oh, OK :( | 13:28 |
| KatolaZ | that's why I wouldn't suggest that as an opton to a newbie | 13:28 |
| KatolaZ | we are working on that | 13:28 |
| Kohlrabi | OK, thankss | 13:28 |
| esr | That NU is pretty old, actually. I got it on sale because it it's an i3 version, I don't think Intel ships those anymore. | 13:28 |
| esr | s/NU/NUC/ | 13:28 |
| KatolaZ | and we will probably have a Beowulf beta at some point | 13:29 |
| esr | If it were really new haedware I'd be less critical. | 13:29 |
| KatolaZ | esr: is the support available in recent kernels? | 13:29 |
| esr | KatolaZ: Yes. No issue under Mint 19. | 13:29 |
| r3boot | which kernel/driver was used under mint esr? | 13:30 |
| man_in_shack | ew mint | 13:30 |
| man_in_shack | too much ubuntu in that mint | 13:30 |
| esr | e1000. Problem under devuan was just a missing alias. | 13:30 |
| r3boot | Ooohhh | 13:30 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 13:31 |
| esr | man_in_shack: I agree, but I wasn't left with much choice. | 13:31 |
| KatolaZ | esr: what do you mean by "was just a missing alias"? | 13:32 |
| KatolaZ | where was the alias missing? | 13:32 |
| KatolaZ | is it a problem of vendor-id? | 13:32 |
| esr | KatolaZ: Yes, the list of vendor-sybtype pairs just did not happen to have the right thing in it. | 13:33 |
| KatolaZ | oh FFS | 13:33 |
| KatolaZ | :\ | 13:33 |
| esr | Missing subtype, really. | 13:33 |
| KatolaZ | then it's down to the kernel device list really | 13:33 |
| esr | Yes. | 13:33 |
| KatolaZ | man, you see... | 13:34 |
| Mithrandir__ | ciao KatolaZ ^^ | 14:41 |
| KatolaZ | hy Mithrandir__ | 15:27 |
| KatolaZ | nice to see you here :) | 15:27 |
| Mithrandir__ | hi KatolaZ, nice to be here for me too | 15:42 |
| Mithrandir__ | =) | 15:42 |
| golinux | Just for the record . . . | 16:41 |
| golinux | esr et al . . . I loathe shiny, shiny on my desktop. I never even installed Mint but iirc, did play with a live cd and their tools totally suck. | 16:43 |
| golinux | It was a real turnoff. Ditto ubuntu. | 16:44 |
| r3boot | good :) | 16:45 |
| golinux | MX Linux suffers from this too. | 16:45 |
| golinux | That whisker menu is an abomination | 16:46 |
| r3boot | I heard that having a LS-120 terminal is all the craze atm | 16:47 |
| r3boot | you already have one? :P | 16:47 |
| golinux | I prefer to have everything install as close to what I want and not have to rebuild the desktop entirely. | 16:48 |
| golinux | Nope. | 16:48 |
| golinux | I am a minimalist in all things though. | 16:48 |
| * golinux goes back to reading the logs from when I was sleeping. | 16:49 | |
| grillon | hi there | 18:32 |
| grillon | does anyone know avahi?(for zeroconf); when I don't have dhcp and dns in my network I cannot resolve name in .local :( I need to do avahi-resolve-host-name then use ip | 18:34 |
| KatolaZ | grillon: why do you need avahi at all? | 18:42 |
| grillon | hi KatolaZ | 19:15 |
| grillon | I have a mini cluster of orange pi PC I would like to be able to add and remove host anytime and port the whole ensemble anywhere | 19:17 |
| grillon | I would like anyone host to be main | 19:17 |
| KatolaZ | ok grillon but how does avahi get into play? | 19:18 |
| KatolaZ | (and why, more importantly?) | 19:18 |
| grillon | zeroconf for ip(dhcp), zeroconf for dns(mdns) | 19:18 |
| grillon | hosts are talking to each other by hostname | 19:19 |
| KatolaZ | again, since the hosts are known, why not having a local DNS | 19:20 |
| KatolaZ | or sharing an /etc/hosts file? | 19:20 |
| grillon | that's what I do now but I would like it to be dynamic. Because I would like it easy to reproduce | 19:20 |
| grillon | zeroconf pretend to need zeroconf and zero knowledge | 19:21 |
| KatolaZ | this is what they put in the advertisement, yes | 19:21 |
| KatolaZ | but reality is often different from advertisement | 19:21 |
| KatolaZ | and nothing comes for free :D | 19:21 |
| grillon | yes seems so :( | 19:22 |
| KatolaZ | grillon: if the thing is a mini cluster, providing an easy way to share an /etc/hosts looks the easiest option to me | 19:23 |
| grillon | You may be right. I thought zeroconf really need zeroconf :/ | 19:25 |
| KatolaZ | I know little of zeroconf, TBH | 19:25 |
| KatolaZ | never been able to put it at work in a real use-case | 19:26 |
| KatolaZ | it's far too complicated | 19:26 |
| grillon | :) | 19:26 |
| KatolaZ | IMHO, automatic stuff gonna get broken, and zeroconf normally does :D | 19:26 |
| esr | KatolaZ: Uh oh. Does seroconf not work in a default Devuan install? | 19:27 |
| KatolaZ | no idea esr | 19:27 |
| KatolaZ | I never install avahi&friends | 19:28 |
| esr | Actually I can test this. | 19:28 |
| grillon | esr: it works if I already have dns and dhcp but without these I cannot resolve names so devices are not able to communicate by name | 19:29 |
| grillon | in my nsswitch I put mdns first | 19:30 |
| KatolaZ | grillon: be sure you have no restrictive firewall in place though | 19:30 |
| grillon | I did a iptables -F, it's wide open | 19:32 |
| fsmithred | FTR, avahi gets installed with the default desktop install. I would assume it works in devuan if it works in debian. | 19:36 |
| esr | Confirmed. I just tested on my expeimental ASCII install: zeroconf works out of the box. | 19:43 |
| fsmithred | cool. | 19:43 |
| fsmithred | I'm another one who doesn't install it, so I didn't know. | 19:44 |
| grillon | esr: what do you mean out of the box? | 19:51 |
| esr | grillon: Fresh ASCII install. | 19:52 |
| esr | No local mods. | 19:52 |
| grillon | so without any dhcp/dns you can obtain an IP and resolve it? | 19:52 |
| grillon | (resolv name in .local) | 19:53 |
| esr | I don't know whether it's using dhcp for not. Probably is. What I do know is: 1. I boot up with Ethernret plugged in, 2. I open a terminal window, 3. I do "ping snark.local" (snark being the name of another lost on my house net), and 4) it resolves to a local address and ping works. | 19:55 |
| esr | grillon: I can also ssh from snark to grue.locl and the right things occur. | 19:56 |
| esr | dhcp may be involved in getting an IP address on boot - I don't know, I'm not a wizard in that area. | 19:57 |
| esr | But that looks like "working correctly" to me. | 19:58 |
| Leander | not needing a DHCP server is the point of zeroconf, but same here, never used it | 20:02 |
| esr | I think my router is a dhcp server. But I have no clue how acahi and dhcp interact. | 20:03 |
| djph | esr: avahi? | 20:13 |
| djph | avahi / zeroconf / etc. relies on a functioning network | 20:14 |
| djph | either via properly set static IPs, or DHCP | 20:14 |
| esr | djph: The Linux zeroconf implementation. | 20:14 |
| grillon | as I said earlier when I have a dhcp it works | 20:14 |
| djph | esr: yeah, avahi-daemon is the mdns/bonjour/(zeroconf?) thing. It's ... well, it tries to be useful... | 20:15 |
| grillon | I just cannot resolv when it's a 169.something address | 20:16 |
| djph | grillon: yeah, you need *something* valid. APIPA addresses (much like avahi) don't always work. | 20:16 |
| djph | APIPA is more supposed to be "plugged the old desktop into the new one so I could transfer files because I don't have a real network" | 20:17 |
| djph | ... or USB keys, etc... | 20:17 |
| grillon | you mean it should be only for transition? | 20:19 |
| KatolaZ | the original reason to have zeroconf was net devices like printers and NAS devices | 20:20 |
| KatolaZ | which in a home environment need to stay local | 20:20 |
| KatolaZ | AFAIK | 20:22 |
| grillon | each device are local for each other in my case | 20:23 |
| grillon | does anyone use ipv6? | 20:27 |
| golinux | Nope. Not me | 20:30 |
| esr | Have begun writing rant on Galaxy. "A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to" | 20:31 |
| grillon | now it works :) | 20:33 |
| grillon | seems I have forgot avahi-autoipd on one side | 20:33 |
| grillon | not sure it's the cause but I have installed it and...euhh no it's not working... | 20:35 |
| djph | just use a proper network (i.e. NO APIPA) | 20:37 |
| djph | I have a dualstack test network, but most everything is v4 | 20:37 |
| grillon | I have dualstack network to and sometimes with APIPA only ipv6 is up | 20:38 |
| grillon | if I ssh a domain name with an ipv6 behind I have "ssh: connect to host devuan.local port 22: Invalid argument" | 20:39 |
| grillon | devuan.local is the domain name of one of the SBC | 20:39 |
| grillon | so I have to use ssh -6 my_ip_v6%my_link instead of ssh my_domain_name | 20:40 |
| grillon | I have read it's because the scope of my ipv6 addr is link | 20:42 |
| grillon | is it possible to ssh a domain name instead of an ip? or is it really normal to use ip in ipv6? | 20:43 |
| grillon | (and I think I know how to be sure to resolve APIPA : declare services in /etc/avahi/services) unfortunately I could not make it work in dual stack or ipv6 | 20:45 |
| djph | no, v6 uses dns more than ip addresses | 20:55 |
| grillon | how could I ssh a local domain? djph | 20:56 |
| grillon | local domain reachable via an ip of scope link | 20:57 |
| grillon | hehe sorry to polute :( | 21:08 |
| grillon | the answer is in the man ... | 21:09 |
| grillon | man avahi-autoipd | 21:09 |
| grillon | now everything works but it's not zeroconf. few things to do are install avahi package everywhere, launch avahi-autoipd, declare ssh service, make static routes | 21:12 |
| grillon | configure hosts in every device is much easier thank you for advices and I'm happy it works anyway :p | 21:13 |
| system16 | should i install apache http on my sftp server ? by doing so everyone can access the data on the server without using a sftp client | 21:21 |
| system16 | ONLY on LAN tho | 21:21 |
| system16 | or i can create my own website (lets say something like a vlog website idk) | 21:23 |
| djph | system16: what? | 21:54 |
| system16 | djph, nothing | 21:55 |
| system16 | i dont need apache | 21:55 |
| djph | unless you want to run a webserver | 21:55 |
| system16 | man. i really like running a web server but i have no idea how to create a .html file | 21:57 |
| system16 | aka a good website | 21:57 |
| djph | vi file.html <- bam, done. | 22:03 |
| system16 | i know that | 22:04 |
| system16 | i mean | 22:04 |
| system16 | i want to create a nice looking web site | 22:04 |
| system16 | but i have 0 knowledge about designing web sites | 22:04 |
| djph | static html looks nice | 22:23 |
| system16 | wat | 22:23 |
| system16 | ^^see thats the problem | 22:23 |
| djph | there is literally nothing wrong or ugly about black text on a white background | 22:24 |
| system16 | well i cant even do that | 22:24 |
| system16 | (also in my opinion , it does look ugly) | 22:24 |
| djph | <html><body> ... </body></html> | 22:25 |
| system16 | and how do u put a file on there so ppl can download it | 22:27 |
| system16 | directly from the server | 22:27 |
| system16 | cause you know, its actually a file server too. | 22:27 |
| djph | <a href=/path/to/file>texthere</a> | 22:29 |
| system16 | so : | 22:29 |
| system16 | <html> | 22:29 |
| system16 | <body> | 22:29 |
| system16 | <a href=/path/to/file>texthere</a> | 22:29 |
| system16 | <html> | 22:30 |
| system16 | <body> ? | 22:30 |
| system16 | oh wait that just shows the file | 22:31 |
| system16 | add hi welcome to this server before <a href=/path/to/file>texthere</a> | 22:31 |
| golinux | Check out W3C | 22:31 |
| golinux | And please take an html lesson to #debianfork | 22:32 |
| system16 | yup | 22:33 |
| golinux | Thanks. | 22:33 |
| system16 | i succ at developing websites :) | 22:33 |
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