| g40 | systemdlete: badblocks is a good suggestion, will try it. thanks. | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| pav5088 | Question : Does ifdown and ifup work on Devuan? It seems on Debian Stretch it does not... or at least the behaviour is undefined. I reported this on the Debian mailing list, and it seems it isn't even an architecture-specific thing. I'll say this again - even something as basic as ifup/ifdown doesn't work predictably on Debian. I even got some (un)helpful systemd error messages (not saying the fault is necessarily systemd, but I'm suspicious). | 03:50 |
| gnarface | yea, sounds familiar | 03:55 |
| gnarface | i don't think you're the first person to complain of this | 03:55 |
| gnarface | i also think it's typical of systemd to break stuff they didn't know about | 03:56 |
| pav5088 | gnarface, whaat? That's just crazy. Something so basic surely can't be so borked... | 03:56 |
| pav5088 | ...especially after so many releases | 03:57 |
| pav5088 | (isn't Stretch onto the 5th release or something?) | 03:57 |
| gnarface | certainly you must be putting me on | 03:58 |
| gnarface | this whole distro only exists because a critical mass of people didn't think systemd exhibited basic competence | 03:58 |
| gnarface | they probably have some other way to do that which solves the imaginary problem of no tool existing to do that | 04:00 |
| pav5088 | gnarface, well, I use Devuan on my personal PC... and I haven't even had to report any bugs. (Actually, I have had lockups when playing certain games though... perhaps I should look into that). The basics though are just traditional-Debian-solid.... | 04:05 |
| gnarface | doesn't that make you wonder why they wanted to change it to a project that clearly wasn't being maintained competently? | 04:06 |
| pav5088 | I just assumed Debian Stretch would be similar, except with annoying pointless hairballs. I didn't expect to get snagged in my play environment almost instantly with failures of basic functionality. | 04:06 |
| gnarface | lol i know right. it's like they're not even using it themselves... | 04:07 |
| gnarface | this is more a rant for #debianfork though | 04:07 |
| pav5088 | Didn't even know there was such a channel. | 04:08 |
| golinux | They are probably developing Linux on Macs. Not joking | 04:10 |
| gnarface | i believe they're just testing in virtual machines | 04:19 |
| gnarface | mostly automated unit tests | 04:19 |
| gnarface | they might be using macs | 04:20 |
| golinux | I have seen Linux presenters with Macs on the podium | 04:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | systemdlete: badblocks doesn't work on MMC | 14:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh holla beat me on that | 14:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I vab confirm that akk the defect uSD I hd either didn't show meaningful results on badblocks, or my system crashed (FU)BAR before badblocks even finished | 14:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/wab/may/ | 15:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "bad blocks" of MMC ar listed during boot (mount?) by kernel afaik. | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dmesg | 15:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | damn, did "recent" ssh client updates (+ related libs) cghange the environment and/or behavior of *server* where I log in to with this ssh client? E.G. I can't start mc anymore, I get: | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# mc | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Error opening terminal: xterm-256color. | 15:36 |
| g4570n | Centurion_Dan: ping | 17:16 |
| detha | DocScrutinizer05: could well be. I rarely look at what $TERM is set to, but it is now xterm-256color | 17:26 |
| detha | that might explain why vi on servers suddenly started doing silly color-highlighting | 17:27 |
| systemdlete | DocScrutinizer: So badblocks does not work on uSD cards? Not surprising if so. | 18:03 |
| systemdlete | It was my only idea, that's all. Sorry for the bad input. | 18:03 |
| systemdlete | s/input/suggestion/ | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | systemdlete: np. Good we cought it | 18:04 |
| systemdlete | are you booting off the card? You said kernel reported bad blocks on boot | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my experience: to test a uSD card. you need to write one large (or multiple smaller) files to it to fill it completely to its capacity | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then read+compare for max certainty | 18:05 |
| systemdlete | badblocks does essentially the same thing, except it writes at the block device level, not via the fs | 18:05 |
| systemdlete | your approach MIGHT not thoroughly test all the "overhead" blocks that are not part of the filesystem | 18:06 |
| systemdlete | still, yours is a pretty good way of testing the card, and I'll keep that in mind next time I use a mSD card | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I often do dd if=whatever of=/DUT/testfile bs=1m count=1 && dd if=/DUT/testfile of=/DUT/testfile bs=1m count=<size_of_uSD_in_MiB_minus_a_few> | 18:07 |
| systemdlete | ah, see, that is writing directly to the block device. | 18:08 |
| systemdlete | so badblocks ought to work also. | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | systemdlete: badblocks tests on a per-block basis which doesn't warant to test any particular amount of real physical blocks on uSD since those get moved around by the flash controller | 18:09 |
| systemdlete | I see. so the dd trick is probably about the best bet -- you catch all blocks that way, regardless of the REAL ordering (per controller) | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | systemdlete: actually there are fake uSD / USB drives that have only a small fraction of the advertised (and reported in device info data structure) real physical memory and they simply mirror that fraction to cover the complete advertised address space. A badblocks would not even detect those devices | 18:20 |
| systemdlete | Mirror? how can you mirror blocks that don't exist? | 18:21 |
| systemdlete | or is the assumption that most people wont actually use all the space anyway, so they wont notice? | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dd trick would, with readback+compare (unless you managed to use an exact base 2 fraction of claimed size for the initial bs=1m count=1) | 18:22 |
| * systemdlete needs to make coffee but keep chatting if you want | 18:22 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, the latter | 18:22 |
| systemdlete | pure sleaze! | 18:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah | 18:22 |
| systemdlete | next time I buy a USB, I will run a test before using it... lol | 18:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fun to unnoticed have your 1st photo getting overwritten by #4096 photo | 18:23 |
| systemdlete | if actual < advertised, then start class action | 18:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw kudos to your nick! nice :-) | 18:24 |
| systemdlete | ty | 18:24 |
| systemdlete | I think it sums up my feelings pretty concisely | 18:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | detha: how would we fix that $TERM etc shit? | 18:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and whom to shoot with owl feces for introducing that? | 18:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Leander: holla been correct, uSD *do* have exactly that type of wear leveling | 18:28 |
| Leander | well, I didn't know about that | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NAND OTOH doesn't | 18:30 |
| detha | DocScrutinizer05: good question. term comes somewhere out of the login stuffs | 18:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think I noticed that shit with all my remote boxes (de??an, maemo, Suse) since upgrading my local PC ssh client (and complete system) | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which now runs Leap15 | 18:33 |
| systemdlete | did you remember to set $TERM-SYSTEMD ? | 18:34 |
| detha | hmm. first confirm that after 'export TERM=xterm' things work again | 18:34 |
| * systemdlete ducks | 18:34 | |
| detha | if so, gotta trace back what tacks that stupid -256color onto it | 18:35 |
| detha | (or just bluntly put "if $TERM eq xterm* export TERM=xterm" in /etc/bash.bashrc) | 18:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | systemdlete: not _that_ bizarre a comment. Quite possible something similar is needed | 18:38 |
| unmy | DocScrutinizer05, which xterminal you are using on your local PC? | 18:39 |
| systemdlete | weird is the new normal in Linux | 18:39 |
| Ryccardo | DocScrutinizer05: check out ¨F3¨ (fight flash fraud), it´s a read-write test designed especially for capacity-hacked drives | 18:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | detha: so you say it's all a question of local $ENV that get exported to host by ssh client? | 18:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Ryccardo: nice | 18:40 |
| systemdlete | Does F3 automatically contact the FTC Fraud department when it finds these drives? | 18:40 |
| Ryccardo | I think that´s bloat :P | 18:40 |
| detha | yup. ssh sends through whatever your local $TERM is to the other side | 18:41 |
| systemdlete | The only thing that is bloated is their false claims! | 18:41 |
| systemdlete | for a couple days now, logwatch is reporting a LOT of logged packets on my Ascii VM | 18:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | detha: does that also apply to keymaps? I used to invoke history completion oin bash via <substring+> PgUp. Now gives me a ~ only | 18:43 |
| unmy | DocScrutinizer05, which xterminal you are using on your local PC? | 18:44 |
| fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, you talking about scrolling up your history with pgup? | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Konversation, since ages | 18:44 |
| unmy | and what echo $TERM spit out? | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: completing a started line from histroy, by PgUp, yes | 18:45 |
| fsmithred | oh, I don't know that trick | 18:45 |
| unmy | remote hosts not always have whole database of terminfo | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~/Dokumente/Telegram> echo $TERM | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | xterm-256color | 18:45 |
| unmy | if you wanna be safe just use something like: TERM=xterm-256color ssh user@host | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of course :-S | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ugh prolly not | 18:46 |
| unmy | DocScrutinizer05, did you export before or done that command right after login? | 18:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess you meant TERM=xterm ssh user@host | 18:46 |
| unmy | basicly every distribution support xterm-256color right of the box | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unmy: I never did anything like that before | 18:47 |
| detha | Actually don't know about keymaps. I have noticed that between devuan1 and devuan2 shift-arrow-up to scroll through xfce-terminal stopped working | 18:48 |
| unmy | blame your konversation which done something bad or you mess up somewhere else :\ | 18:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm sure I didn't have TERM=xterm-256color or otherwise I'd wonder why it worked on that maemo system that now spits "Error opening terminal: xterm-256color" | 18:49 |
| detha | hmm. /etc/ssh/ssh_config says SendEnv LANG LC_*, and doesn't say 'send TERM' | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unmy: ys, I already insinuated that my local system broken it on upgrade. Either ssh client, or terminal, or bash startup scripts or whatever. I hoped some of you folks would have recognized that error/defect and know "ah this is the changed /etc/bash/foobarRC which been introduced with bash5.89" | 18:52 |
| gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: just set it to xterm | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or sth like pretty much what detha just posted :-))) I have massive issues with all LC_* struff | 18:53 |
| gnarface | nobody universally agrees on what to set it to or how to set it. "xterm" is ironically the most universally compatible setting right now | 18:53 |
| gnarface | (though it's supposed to be vt100 or something like that, xterm has become the defacto standard due to Linux saturation) | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ...and I guess I had "xterm" so far. Now it's TERM=xterm-256color | 18:54 |
| gnarface | rxvt-unicode-256color is doing the right thing but nothing has been updated to actually pay attention | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I asked in #suse, but... that channel is not even a 100th as helpful as e.g. this one here | 18:55 |
| unmy | gnarface, ye but many remote systems don't have rxvt-unicode-256color in terminfo because many distribution need full rxvt package to install..... | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's weird how they seem to have fsckd up some pan-distro compatibility thing | 18:56 |
| detha | wait until someones brings adm3a back...... terminfo stuff has always been at some level of broken | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or MAYBE I've changed that form $whatever666colors to xterm a decade_and_some ago, and it stuck until recent distro upgrade? | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | let me try the suggested fixes | 18:58 |
| unmy | detha, well you can always install own terminfo database as user on remote host and will work just fine | 18:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | YEAH, mc is back with "export TERM=xterm" | 19:00 |
| detha | unmy: yeah. but that is a royal pain. And it assumes I have a tic for that system | 19:00 |
| unmy | detha, yep :/ | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so "who" is setting those envs usually, where? | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *bet* the same culprit messed up my keymaps | 19:01 |
| detha | used to come out of getty, or your X login stuff | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | TA! | 19:01 |
| gnarface | i had assumed the remote system shell sets it to whatever the local term reports | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | obviously not | 19:01 |
| detha | it does. | 19:01 |
| detha | but the remote understands xterm, but not xterm-666color | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh wait, I didn't finish reading the above sentence | 19:02 |
| gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: just add "-tn xterm" to your urxvt command-line | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | never heard of urxvt | 19:02 |
| gnarface | it's not worth going down the rabbit hole on this one just to come up with the conclusion that xterm is still the only reasonable value | 19:02 |
| gnarface | urxvt is rxvt-unicode-256color | 19:03 |
| detha | It would actually be nice to know where that is set | 19:03 |
| gnarface | (it's just a symlink) | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gnarface: I only want to revert my local system back to what it been before the upgrade | 19:03 |
| gnarface | oh actually on ceres it's a binary now | 19:03 |
| gnarface | yikes that runs gid utmp | 19:04 |
| systemdlete | ah, I had bumped up ufw logging to high. Set it back to low should quiet those AUDIT log messages -- they are coming from yahoo, google and other public sites | 19:04 |
| gnarface | hmm | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and my local system is suse leap15 | 19:04 |
| unmy | he using Konversation x terminal so first I would check other more sane terminals how working and after just blame Konversation :D | 19:04 |
| gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: on debian, i've never not had to override it | 19:04 |
| gnarface | for rxvt-unicode* | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on suse, I also never had to, iirc | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "just worked" until last system upgrade | 19:05 |
| gnarface | strange | 19:05 |
| unmy | gnarface, depends from use, try login to openwrt router with rxvt* and run any ncurse based application :P | 19:06 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 will have a deep look into Konsole settings (sorry, NOT Konversation, I'm not _that_ weird to run my shells from my IRC client) | 19:06 | |
| unmy | in Konsole there are probably some setting about TERM to use and fallback or were there years ago... | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 19:07 |
| unmy | or create hacky alias 'TERM=xterm ssh' :D | 19:09 |
| gnarface | i just put the extra command-line options in my enlightenment toolbar icons | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | zilch like "ENV: ..." in Konsole settings. must be 100% heritage from shell startup / other (global) env inheritance | 19:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mhm! [2018-08-26 19:22:56] <tacit> In particular, handling of the environment and terminal handling changed to improve security. | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm pretty sure nuking a working system config doesn't do much good for security | 19:27 |
| Hazuki | Hello. I'm having trouble with Runit; installing it seems not to produce any service files (especially, nothing for agetty), which means it can't start a terminal. I've been googling for an hour or so on this and reading dev1galaxy but no luck | 20:37 |
| Hazuki | Is this a case of "write your own, n00blet" or...? | 20:38 |
| gnarface | not sure but i'm guessing you're missing another package | 20:39 |
| gnarface | something sysvinit also uses | 20:39 |
| gnarface | file-rc or sysv-rc or something like that maybe? i don't know the name but i think this has come up recently | 20:39 |
| gnarface | i could be wrong. maybe you have to write your own stuff, but usually in that case they at least put decent examples in /usr/share/doc/[package] | 20:40 |
| Hazuki | hmm...no file-rc package and i've got sysv-rc already | 20:40 |
| Hazuki | been combing through the docs a bit...i notice devuan's package has less stuff in it than debian's does | 20:42 |
| unmy | Hazuki, dont you have anything in "/etc/sv/" ? | 20:44 |
| Hazuki | nope, total blank. i used Void for a while and that's the first place i looked | 20:45 |
| Hazuki | oh wow, there's a getty-run package and when installed it dumps stuff in /etc/sv | 20:47 |
| Hazuki | you'd think this would be a dependency or at least a recommend... | 20:48 |
| unmy | Hazuki, ye it definitely should be but isn't :/ | 20:51 |
| unmy | Hazuki, in Void could just do "xlocate /etc/sv" and in debian maybe that "apt-file search /etc/sv" | 20:55 |
| Hazuki | no apt-file command on here...weird | 20:56 |
| unmy | nah, have to install and after apt-file update | 20:57 |
| Hazuki | ahh, okay. can you tell i'm not a debian girl, LOL? i started on Gentoo in 2004 | 20:58 |
| Hazuki | back when a Pentium M could complete a reasonably small emerge -uDavN world in a day | 20:58 |
| unmy | I remember gentoo and Pentium III 800mhz overclocked to 1ghz :P | 20:59 |
| Hazuki | goooood times | 21:00 |
| gnarface | do you have the "initscripts" package, Hazuki? | 21:01 |
| Hazuki | yes | 21:02 |
| Hazuki | as far as I know there's no package like "runit-world" on Artix that populates /etc/sv with scripts | 21:07 |
| gnarface | hmmm | 21:08 |
| gnarface | is there an /etc/ruinit? | 21:08 |
| gnarface | or /etc/runit i mean? | 21:09 |
| gnarface | i found this on the debian wiki: https://wiki.debian.org/runit | 21:09 |
| gnarface | it says to copy the contents of /usr/share/doc/runit/debian/ to /etc/runit | 21:09 |
| Hazuki | yes, that was my first hit on google. there is no /debian/ folder though | 21:09 |
| gnarface | how about examples? | 21:09 |
| gnarface | or something like that? | 21:09 |
| Hazuki | nope | 21:09 |
| gnarface | jerks | 21:10 |
| Hazuki | also, the html doc for using runit as PID one references Debian Woody... >>; | 21:10 |
| Hazuki | that's so long ago i don't even bloody remember how long, pardon my Klatchian | 21:10 |
| fsmithred | I might still have some woody disks I could send you | 21:11 |
| Hazuki | http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html appears to be a collection of generic run scripts...maybe the package ought to mention this on install | 21:11 |
| gnarface | i have trouble believing those files aren't still in the repo somewhere | 21:12 |
| gnarface | but maybe you do have to get them from an older release... | 21:12 |
| gnarface | if so though, this is another case of inconspicuous vandalism | 21:12 |
| fsmithred | might the missing files be called getty.run.x and getty.finish.x? | 21:13 |
| Hazuki | how so? o_O someone deliberately wiped out whatever runit-initscripts package there was, you think? | 21:13 |
| fsmithred | in the runit source, there's debian/runscripts/ containing those two files | 21:14 |
| gnarface | Hazuki: we've been seeing some incidents of "nobody's using this, right? woops, already deleted it... too late now" coming from debian | 21:14 |
| gnarface | it's not happening a lot yet but this wouldn't be the first incident | 21:15 |
| Hazuki | oh, sod >< | 21:15 |
| Hazuki | sounds like they've really drunk the systemd koolaid, eh? | 21:15 |
| gnarface | yea | 21:15 |
| Hazuki | i can't believe this is happening....systemd is a transparent attempt to MS-ize Linux by RedHat | 21:16 |
| Hazuki | i've been on Void and Artix for ages, was on Funtoo/OpenRC for years before that, as soon as systemd hit | 21:17 |
| gnarface | money talks, they say. but it doesn't just talk. it sings, dances, cheats, steals, and it lies. | 21:17 |
| Hazuki | it's always a delicate dance...no money and no dev work happens. too much, and the devs end up doing dishonorable things | 21:18 |
| Centurion_Dan | Hazuki: there has to be both integrity and money... from a dev with no integrity you can expect them to sell out.. with no money devs will have be doing that work afterhours in competition with other things like family and social/leisure activities.. | 22:26 |
| ibanja | My wife is moving to Linux and I was trying to find a way to put an icon on the desktop that ejects/unmounts usb sticks and such like on Windows, so she doesn't have to type unmount. | 22:36 |
| ibanja | excuse me, not on the desktop, but in the system tray | 22:37 |
| xcm | maybe KDE is better suited for someone moving from windows? | 22:38 |
| xcm | otherwise depends on how you mount / what your desktop is | 22:38 |
| gnarface | i don't think it would be so difficult with any window manager | 22:40 |
| gnarface | don't most of them support this natively if you have udisks2 installed? | 22:40 |
| ibanja | I want to keep her with LXDE because I am familiar with it. | 22:41 |
| gnarface | worst case scenario you make a simple bash script and tie that to a toolbar icon instead | 22:41 |
| ibanja | gnarface: I was thinking that... just hoping someone knew of an existing solution | 22:41 |
| gnarface | i assumed LXDE had something built in but i haven't really looked myself. i still do it the old fashioned way | 22:42 |
| ibanja | how does it support this with udisks2? | 22:42 |
| gnarface | is it installed? | 22:42 |
| ibanja | i do it the old fashioned way too... | 22:42 |
| ibanja | udisks2 is installed | 22:42 |
| gnarface | well like in e17 and xfce for example, if udisks2 is installed, anything you plug in shows up as a desktop icon you can right-click on sorta apple style | 22:43 |
| gnarface | or it should anyway, i thought | 22:43 |
| gnarface | i mean | 22:43 |
| gnarface | i uninstalled udisks2 to make that stop happening | 22:43 |
| gnarface | it not working out of the box isn't a situation i was familiar with | 22:43 |
| ibanja | I just tried putting a usbstick in and no icon | 22:44 |
| gnarface | could it be missing some other lxde packages? | 22:44 |
| ibanja | Got it! | 22:45 |
| gnarface | what was it? | 22:45 |
| gnarface | lxpanel or something? | 22:46 |
| gnarface | lxpolkit? | 22:46 |
| ibanja | I just noticed that when PCManFM fires up after putting in the USB, there is an icon to umount... never noticed because I always navigate with the command line | 22:46 |
| gnarface | oh | 22:46 |
| gnarface | there might be some seek delay too, depending on power management states and device speeds | 22:46 |
| ibanja | speaking of PCManFM... my ~/.config/pcmanfm/LXDE/pcmanfm.conf file won't keep the "view_mode=list" setting. It keeps changing back when I start up PCmanFM... any ideas what's causing this? | 22:46 |
| gnarface | i got nothing for that, sorry | 22:47 |
| gnarface | never used it | 22:47 |
| gnarface | hang out though. someone must have | 22:47 |
| ibanja | right... thanks for the USB help | 22:47 |
| gnarface | no problem | 22:47 |
| gnarface | subdirectories of /media/ are the designated default mounting points for devices | 22:51 |
| ibanja | that's where my USBs mount to | 22:53 |
| ibanja | unless there's an fstab entry | 22:53 |
| Centurion_Dan | ibanja: by default xfce puts a disk/cd/dvd icon on the desktop when one is mounted and if you right click on it, it has an eject option - also thunar file manager shows and eject option for all removable medial. | 23:03 |
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