libera/#devuan-dev/ Monday, 2018-05-28

fsmithredKatolaZ, correct.00:15
telmichgood evening00:59
telmichis something wrong with deb.devuan.org? we seem to get < 50 Kib/s from it at the moment00:59
KatolaZtelmich: ?06:47
DocScrutinizer05administrative note: don't post all UPPERCASE messages, the spambot doesn't like it (as usual doesn't apply to devels - those whith +v)06:57
kilobyteLᴇᴛ'ꜱ ꜱᴇᴇ ɪꜰ SᴍᴀʟʟCᴀᴘꜱ ᴀʀᴇ ꜱᴀꜰᴇ ᴡʀᴛ ᴛʀɪɢɢᴇʀɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ꜱᴘᴀᴍʙᴏᴛ ᴛʜɪɴɢʏ.11:01
parazydlol11:03
KatolaZo_O11:03
enyckilobyte: the smallcaps look funny in my screen/font but anyway ;p12:10
DocScrutinizer05let alone I can't read 50% of it either12:31
DocScrutinizer05don't worry, I already suggested adding a trap for all graphics and color chars12:32
kilobytehmm, xterm can't handle it, any terminals which can do glyph borrowing can unless you have only a very minimal set of fonts installed12:34
DocScrutinizer05I.E. non-ANSII12:34
kilobyte"graphics"?12:34
kilobytenot sure what do you mean12:34
DocScrutinizer05prolly [^A-Za-z0-9]12:35
kilobytedropping ANSI color would be a good idea, few people use it12:35
kilobytedropping ANSI as in "Microsoft's name for CP1252" is long overdue, De??an should use UTF-8 exclusively, but I guess that's not what you mean :þ12:36
kilobyte(color for IRC, that is -- I'm just pushing a patch set for displaying color in build logs, it drastically helps with finding where the error is)12:37
onefangSo long as we support ASCII.  B-)13:41
kilobyteASCII is a strict subset of UTF-8, so yeah :)13:46
Centurion_DanI just discovered today that ascii is infected with pulseaudio... and things like the xfce4 panel plugin for alsa are missing!!! :-o13:53
kilobyteIIRC xfce was using gstreamer; gstreamer dropped mixer API as it is not their job to provide mixery stuff (rightfully, do one thing...).  So someone went and implemented mixer -- for pulseaudio only.13:54
kilobyteie, what's needed is someone to port the xfce4 panel plugin to alsa libraries, or to adapt some foreign mixer13:55
kilobyteand yeah, it sucks13:55
parazydEveryone will need pulse these days, as the firefox that's distributed only supports sound using pulse and (maybe) jack.13:56
kilobytefortunately for me I have hardware volume control on both my speakers and my headphones, so it's not my itch :p13:56
onefangI know, I'm a heathen, but I actually like pulse audio.13:57
parazydIt works for normal desktop users.13:57
Centurion_DanI don't... but I'm shocked how that slipped in without more howls of horror....13:57
onefanglol13:57
kilobyteyou'll laugh but right now I'm using pulse on my desktop.  To get it working, I had to buy an USB dongle for 1€ which works with pulse, while my sound card doesn't (despite alsa working perfectly) :p13:58
onefangI might give jack a try some day, it appeals to the side of me that has dealt professionally with music equipment.13:58
Centurion_Danoh, and parazyd I'm not a "normal" desktop user ;-)13:58
kilobytemy time is worth more than 1€, and my tuits are limited13:58
Centurion_Danonefang: maybe this will force me to go fully to jack now...13:59
Centurion_Danfirefox be damned....14:00
kilobytebut, as it sometimes decides to randomly change volume to max, I may one day get angry and fix stuff to work with ALSA14:00
onefangWorks fine with my motherboards built in sound card, and the RIG, and a USB sound card, all at once, sending some things to some devices like I need.  Maybe I got lucky?14:00
onefangI switched to PaleMoon long ago, but rarely need sound out of it anyway.  Chrome is the one I use for things needing sound.14:01
Centurion_Dan.... but that doesn't give me an easy fix for a mixer app either....14:01
kilobytebind a key to: amixer -c 2 set PCM 2.5dB-14:03
kilobyteand another to 2.5dB+14:03
kilobyteso here's your "a mixer" app.14:04
Centurion_Danhttps://github.com/equeim/xfce4-alsa-plugin looks promising...14:05
kilobyte(number of card obviously depends on how many bogus "nvidia hdmi" pieces of crap show up in your system)14:06
kilobyteCenturion_Dan: oooooh14:07
onefangAh, HDMI audio is the only thing I don't use here.  No speakers on any of my monitors, and I have no HDMI sound equipment.14:08
Centurion_Dankilobyte: I usually hack the modules config to defer loading of hdmi devices until after real devices...14:08
kilobyteCenturion_Dan: /etc/asound.conf can specify the default card14:09
Centurion_Dankilobyte: doesn't work reliably.14:10
kilobytegets reordered randomly?14:11
kilobytenot for me, but this might be because my kernel is not modular14:11
Centurion_DanI've done a few systems with multiple multi-channel cards with word clock syncing and you don't want reordering... yeah, you can't guarantee the same order between boots...14:12
onefangI suppose when pulseaudio gets merged into systemd I'll need to switch to jack anyway.14:15
kilobyteheh, good point14:16
golinuxCenturion_Dan: Devuan has always been infected with pulseaudio.  That is hardly news.  Early, on DNG my howling about it fell on deaf ears.17:11
jaromili would love to kick pulseaudio out but between a wish and doing it well assessing the impact and making sure things don't break.... we need a team effort similar to that invested in elogind more or less, as a rough estimation.17:35
Centurion_Dangolinux: alsa worked fine in jessie... and "should" work fine in ascii too...  I'm just a bit shocked at this silent intrusion without so much of a mumble.22:22
Centurion_DanSure firefox is an issue, but I don't care much for it, and we can always patch to support alsa instead.22:25
Centurion_DanTo be honest I'm starting see some defeatist attitudes now...  accepting libsystemd as benign.... accepting pulseaudio... what happened to forging our own path even if that meant eventually building every package ourselves...22:27
Centurion_Dansure it's hard and takes work... but if we don't systemd will eventually break things so badly that we either hard fork everything or give up and use Debian.22:29
fsmithredi   task-xfce-desktop Recommends gnome-orca22:51
fsmithredi A gnome-orca        Depends    speech-dispatcher (>= 0.8)22:52
fsmithredi A speech-dispatcher Recommends pulseaudio22:52
fsmithredsound works in audacious and firefox without pulseaudio in refracta (ascii)22:52
Centurion_Danfirefox in ascii works just fine with pulseaudio.22:53
Centurion_Danbye bye pulseaudio22:53
fsmithredff-esr 52.8.022:54
fsmithredI think starting with 57 it requires pulse22:54
fsmithredremoving pulseaudio looks easy - it only takes four packages with it22:57
kilobytetoo bad very soon you'll get backports of the entire rust ecosystem plus firefox-esr 60, plus removal of everything xul, from stretch22:59
kilobytebecause ff-esr goes out of security support22:59
kilobyteand folks decided against switching to a fork like waterfox22:59
golinuxCenturion_Dan: There are many posts on DNG about pulseaudio.  Here are a few:23:00
golinuxhttps://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150401.192500.7e324721.en.html23:02
golinuxhttps://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151214.232430.7a56bc08.en.html23:02
golinuxhttps://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20160323.004211.517303c2.en.html23:02
golinuxhttps://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20160420.154011.5a6ea48a.en.html23:02
golinuxI am also going to search the irc logs.  iirc it was nextime to wanted to keep pulaseaudio23:03
golinuxHere's a grep on the #devuan logs.  Seems my memory is a little faulty:23:05
golinuxhttps://dev1galaxy.org/znclog/search.cgi?tz=0&P=%23devuan&q=pulseaudio23:05
Centurion_DanI know we discussed it, and even I wouldn't evict it from the archives... but that's not the point.  I had excised pulseaudio from my jessie installation and it silently slipped back in...23:07
Centurion_Danwhen I upgraded to ascii, and that shouldn't have happened.23:07
fsmithredI had libsystemd0 pinned to -1 and it slipped in when I upgraded to ascii23:08
fsmithredand I'm not the only one that's happened to23:08
kilobytepinning syntax has changed; this was in NEWS.Debian but these get blasted with too many minutiae on upgrade to humanely read them all23:10
parazydDon't worry about libsystemd0 and it slipping in.23:11
Centurion_Danfsmithred: I know... but even in jessie, libsystemd0 was required to satisfy dependencies from some packages, but I had KatolaZ sounding off at me about never being able to get rid of libsystemd0 therefore we should just accept it.... and that is to me a capitulation ultimately resulting in acceptance of systemd in full...23:11
parazydIt has to and will be solved in a different way. Forking all the things is not sustainable for us (and has been proven a few times already).23:11
Centurion_Danparazyd: that is the very defeatist attitude that dimishes and drives people away...23:12
parazydAfter Ascii is out, we will stop maintaining even more because it's useless.23:12
parazydCenturion_Dan: Well instead of just ranting, why don't you give a hand?23:12
Centurion_Dando we wait for Poettering to add some less benign code into libsystemd0?23:13
parazydNope. We noop libsystemd0 and stop forking everything else.23:13
Centurion_Danparazyd: I am, maybe not in the areas you'd like and at the level you like, but I have to make an earn too.23:14
parazydAccept the fact that we can't keep up with security updates.23:14
parazydCenturion_Dan: Of course, but I notice you just ranting and not giving any constructive advice. Sorry.23:14
Centurion_Danparazyd: security support is more to do with organisation and communcation then capability and resources.23:15
parazydStill nobody wants to do it. I'm not excluding myself either.23:16
parazydInstead:23:16
parazydWe can spend a month on libsystemd0 and solve our issues for a long long time.23:16
Centurion_DanAnd no parazyd, just because I challenge you at times, it is not ranting.  I just simply disagree with you and point out the weaknesses of your position.23:17
parazydWhat do you disagree with?23:17
Centurion_Danparazyd:... duh??23:19
parazydI'm not following...23:19
parazydCan you be specific please?23:19
Centurion_DanI have been, and you accused me of ranting about it.23:19
parazydThe "defeatist attitute"?23:20
parazydYou haven't provided a solution.23:20
parazydpulseaudio is here and it's not going anywhere. It's not up to us, or even Debian to avoid it in Firefox for example.23:21
Centurion_DanI don't care that pulseaudio is here... I care that it is re-installed silently on upgrade...23:21
Centurion_Danwhen there is no reason for it.23:21
parazydAnd you rant about it instead of sending a patch ;) Ascii is still not released.23:22
parazydYou could have opened a bug on the bugtracker.23:22
Centurion_DanI was hear trying to gather information on the scope and breadth of the issue first!23:23
Centurion_Dans/hear/here/23:23
parazydFair enough, but it's not being done in a constructive attitude.23:24
parazydJust my opinion.23:24
parazydBeing all about a "defeatist attitude" doesn't help with moral as well.23:25
Centurion_DanIf I'm the only one with an issue about pulseaudio, then obviously it's not a big issue...23:25
Centurion_Danif it is, then we need to consider why and how to prevent it...23:27
Centurion_Danand yes there is a need for a certain amount of self reflection to understand how we missed it.23:28
Centurion_Danand no I wouldn't hold up ascii release for it - at a minimum we should note it in the Release Notes.23:28
parazydHave you pinpointed the issue culprit already?23:29
parazyd(iirc some xfce module)23:29
Centurion_DanMost likely i'll provide a virtual package "all-I-want-is-alsa" that declares a conflict on pulseaudio.23:30
Centurion_Danthat will prevent recommends on pulseaudio being installed.23:30
parazydSure, individuals can do this. It does not solve what you're claiming everyone has a problem with now (pulseaudio slipping in)23:32
parazydWhat's the package that is causing this?23:32
fsmithredparazyd, I posted that answer above23:32
parazydfsmithred: gnome-orca?23:33
fsmithredi   task-xfce-desktop Recommends gnome-orca23:33
fsmithredI don't even know what that is23:33
parazydRight. We already have tasksel forked so I don't see this being anything beyond trivial to fix.23:33
fsmithredpersonally, I stay away from task packages23:33
fsmithredit's accessibility stuff23:34
Centurion_Danparazyd: it's xfce4 -> xfce4-pulse-plugin -> pulseaudio23:34
Centurion_Danby recommends23:35
parazydWait so which one of these two is it?23:35
fsmithredthat's not what I see here23:36
kilobyteI'd recommend removing the recommendation from -plugin to pulseaudio, you usually want all the GUI doodads installed -- it's harder for the user to find them, they don't take much space, and cause no harm by being installed23:37
Centurion_Danactually I lie, xfce4 depends on xfce4-pulse-plugin23:38
fsmithredthat's what I see with 'apt-cache rdepends xfce4-pulseaudio plugin'23:38
Centurion_Dans/xfce4-pulse-plugin/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin/23:38
fsmithredbut aptitude show xfce4 does not show that23:38
fsmithredand removing pulseaudio only remove a few associated packages23:39
Centurion_Danapt show xfce4 does as does apt-rdepends --follow="Depends,Recommends" -d -r pulseaudio | grep pulseaudio23:39
Centurion_Danwhich is how I always check dependencies23:39
Centurion_Danactually xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin recommend pavucontrol which recommends pulseaudio...23:44
parazydThat's logical.23:44
parazydSo, would a solution be to remove the pulse-plugin recommend from xfce4?23:45
Centurion_Danbut the issue is that dependency by xfce4 on xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin23:45
Centurion_Danit's a dependency... we'd have to check if it is a hard dependency or a soft one...23:45
KatolaZwazzup?23:46
KatolaZsorry was AFK23:46
fsmithredI always install xfce without installing the xfce4 metapackage. alsa works.23:46
KatolaZhaven't read the backlog23:46
Centurion_Danif it's soft - then we can remove it in the archive... which requires adding support for package overrides in amprolla3... which shouldn't be hard to achieve at all according to my look at amprolla323:48
KatolaZhold on23:48
KatolaZwhat's the problem?23:48
fsmithredpulseaudio gets installed23:49
Centurion_DanKatolaZ: pulseaudio slips in on upfgrade from jessie.23:49
KatolaZuh?23:49
KatolaZhow?23:49
fsmithredmetapackages23:49
KatolaZhold on23:49
parazyd23:34 <+Centurion> parazyd: it's xfce4 -> xfce4-pulse-plugin -> pulseaudio23:49
KatolaZwhich meta-package?23:49
parazydThis supposedly23:49
parazydfsmithred says 23:33 <+fsmithred> i   task-xfce-desktop Recommends gnome-orca23:50
KatolaZand there is nothing wrong with that dep23:50
KatolaZsince blind people use gnome-orca on xfce423:50
KatolaZbut gnome-orca does not depend on pulseaudio23:53
fsmithredi A gnome-orca        Depends    speech-dispatcher (>= 0.8)23:54
fsmithredi A speech-dispatcher Recommends pulseaudio23:54
KatolaZ:well, it's a recommends, not a depends23:54
KatolaZI don't think we can change it for ascii23:55
KatolaZno people have complained about it23:56
KatolaZand we don't introduce regressions in RC23:56
KatolaZit's a good point to consider for beowulf23:56
KatolaZIMHO23:56
Centurion_DanI'm thinking of building a meta-package to that conflicts with pulseaudio to prevent it being installed, for those that want "exclusively alsa"... but I don't consider it an RC blocker.23:57
fsmithredi A speech-dispatcher Recommends pulseaudio23:57
fsmithredoops23:57
KatolaZCenturion_Dan: there is little chance to have it in ascii though, IMHO23:58
fsmithredkeep forgetting I can't copy/paste from vnc23:58
KatolaZwe can't add regressions, again23:58
KatolaZRC should only fix bugs23:58
fsmithredanyway, the point I wanted to make is that it is trivial to remove it23:58
fsmithredunlike some things23:58
Centurion_Danas I said I don't consider it RC critlcal, apt remove pulseaudio has the desired effect.23:59
KatolaZfsmithred: removing stuff needs more extensive testing23:59
KatolaZbefore the Beta we tested all the possible stuff for three weeks23:59
KatolaZand we did the same for two weeks before RC23:59
fsmithredKatolaZ, we've been telling people to remove pulseaudio for years23:59
fsmithredmaybe 10 years23:59
KatolaZfsmithred: that's their choice23:59
KatolaZnot ours23:59
KatolaZand not in ascii23:59

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